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Is a LIVE PTO important

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Mike Lane
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2002-12-29          46671


I am looking at buying a 2001 Kubota L2600DT with 40 hours on it. I intend to mow my 10 acres with it. I am told that it does not have a live PTO and that I need one for mowing.
Why is that? Can't you just spin the blades up to speed in Neutral and then put it in gear and go? Why are so many people telling me to get a live PTO?




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RockyTop1
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2003-01-03          46904


Do you want the mower blades to stop when the tractor stops?
With live PTO that is not a problem since the blades will always
be turning. I drove my neighbor's old Ford tractor and it was kinda of
difficult to cut in narrow areas or where you had to stop frequently to turn, etc. When I got my TC33D, this was no problem because it has
live PTO. ....


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Peters
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2003-01-03          46909


There are 2 problems with the conventional transmission driven PTO. The momentum of the brush mower tends to push the tractor as you clutch to slow the tractor around a corner, the mower does not start until you start to move. Depending on the transmission moving to neutral to start the mower and then into gear can cause problems in getting the tractor in gear. A field mower has a lot of momentum and take a long time to slow down. The mower keeps spinning a long time after the power is disengaged. For an extreme my 7ft BH will spin for a number of minutes after use and the tractor is off.
The after spinning will not be stopped by the live PTO as you need to take it out of gear before you stop the engine.
The independent PTO systems generally have a clutch and brake the PTO after it is shut off.
I guess what I wonder is, if this is a concern, why you don't consider other tractors in the price range, the NH TC-30, JD 790 or the Kioti 3054. All of which are available with live PTO or independent PTO. ....


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marklugo
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2003-01-04          46939


Check out the Eicher 364 for a list of $9995 with two year warranty. Live PTO Power Steering 35 HP. Go to Ag Equipment USA to see! Not much in ballpark with features and price. ....


Link:   Ag Equipment USA

 

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Peters
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2003-01-04          46942


I think that you will find that the other tractors listed are in that price range. The kioti is around 11K or less, the NH here is 10.5K and the JD is in the 11K range here. ....


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DRankin
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2003-01-04          46944


MarkLugo, have you turned wrenches on Eicher's? I wonder about the air cooled diesels. ....


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kay
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2003-01-04          46946


Mike Lane
You can get an over-running clutch for the PTO (about $60) that will overcome some of the "pushing" problems caused by the simple PTO system you are asking about. This clutch goes on the PTO output stub and then the mower PTO shaft attaches to it. The tractor can be stopped, and the mower blades will keep on spinning. Without the over-running clutch, the spinning mower blades will push the tractor until they stop spinning. Also, if the blades are spinning and you are in neutral, you will not be able to shift into gear until the blades stop (that is if the PTO shaft is connected to the transmission on the side of the rear axle gears). ....


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Peters
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2003-01-04          46948


I guess I stated some not all transmission driven. This is due to the fact that some have the clutch (although I am not sure this is the right word) built in. The PTO has a set of clutch dogs built in like a bike that allows the PTO to spin faster than the transmission. I don't know if any have a completely solid link like the old tractors.
Peters ....


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Billy
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2003-01-04          46958


I'm kind of confused about this push caused by the PTO. I had a JD 4600 gear with independent PTO. I never felt this 'push', while using a 6ft hog, when engaging the clutch.

Billy ....


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slowrev
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2003-01-04          46961


Billy, It probably had the over-running clutch built in.
....


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TomG
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2003-01-05          46965


There might be a terminology issue. I've always used 'live' and 'independent' PTO interchangeably. Maybe there's a difference, but for this push problem, TX driven PTO's without an over-running clutch have the problem and live PTO's don't. I'd guess that if 4600's have independent PTO they don't have the problem and don't require an over-running clutch.

What happens is that TX's driven PTO's take their input from the TX counter-shaft (a shaft with gears between the input and output shafts). The counter-shaft often is physically extended out the back of the TX case to PTO drive. With the TX in gear, the input shaft takes it's input from the engine, the counter-shaft from the input-shaft and the output-shaft from the counter-shaft. When the wheels turn, the counter-shaft has to turn.

With the PTO engaged, the PTO-shaft is an extension of the counter-shaft and it also has to turn. Disengaging the clutch prevents the input shaft from receiving power from the engine. However, inertia from a mower still will rotate the counter-shaft that remains coupled to the wheels. With the TX in neutral, the output-shaft is not coupled to the counter-shaft so the wheels don't turn. However, with the clutch engaged, the input and counter shafts remain powered so the PTO drive still works.

The live PTO on my Ford solves the problem with a separate clutch and PTO input shaft. The TX counter-shaft is like a tube and the PTO input shaft feeds through the TX counter-shaft. I've never been certain, but my impression is that HST tractors sort of have live PTO almost by definition. A PTO has to have an input where the rpm is tied to engine rpm. There is no place in a HST TX where the speed doesn't change independent of the engine except the pump input-shaft. Since the pump input is ahead of the TX, I'd think the PTO would be live by definition.
....


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marklugo
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2003-01-05          47010


Guys,
Live PTO can be independent. It also can be through a second clutch. It also can be hydraulically driven. Live refers to the PTO's ability to function with out parasitic operation from the transmission.( maintaining use of PTO while transmission clutch is disengaged.)

Independent can be hydraulically driven, planetary driven with an independent shaft with brake bands to shift motion to PTO.or through a seperate inner shaft bolted to the flywheel that is coupled to the PTO with a clutch that looks(as stated somewhere above) like a motorcycle clutch.

Traditional live PTO though is most times is in reference to a dual clutch( two stage, or double clutch also)located in the flywheel housing connected to the clutch pedal. Half way down disengages transmission all the way down disengages both PTO and transmission. A few tractors like Belarus and Valtra offer a seperate pedal or control lever to actuate the second stage. This works great for hay baling and similar operations where tight turning with trailed PTO operated implements are being used.

I will be so brave as to mention live Hydraulics. Generally, live hydraulics operate off a pump mounted to the engine, or flywheel. Old tractors like an 8n 9n and 2n series operated off the PTO shaft. This was convoluded and dangerous to an extent. The PTO had to turn to operate the pump! The transmission had to operate to turn the PTO! It meant that a brush hog fly wheel effect would continue to drive the transmission gears as it wound down.
Brakes were little help and were frequently eaten up! Gradually with a few losses of life and limb, live Hydraulics became standard on most tractors. However, it is possible to see a few companies that have a Live, two stage clutch with the PTO and Hydraulic pump using the same main shaft. The result: independent operation of transmission, and PTO but with a loss of Hydraulics only when PTO clutch is disengaged(generally not dependent upon actual engagement of PTO lever.)

Finally, overunning clutches are great inventions as a life saver. But they just that. A free wheeling PTO is as extremely dangerous as coasting down a hill without any brakes. The flywheel effect created with a rotary cutter is powerful and long lasting. With live PTO, there are variety of ways that PTO operation can be braked. ....


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marklugo
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2003-01-05          47011


Peters,
Yes, you may, but that is after "best price". Also many(as was my point) do not have live PTO or Power steering or folding ROPS or 12 ply Goodyear tires or Draft contol. Certainly they do not weigh 4000lbs complete to put the HP to the dirt or as high lift capacity or can be outfitted with a loader capable of 4000 lbs break out force,(2500 full lift) and to a lifting height of 10ft.(Dump truck friendly). Nor will any of these tractors pull 3 14" bottom plows in 3rd gear or 8 ft box blades! or pull 7ft rotary cutters through 3-4 brush?

Also with 32.5 hp on PTO

Also, many dealers run specials on these tractors at times in the mid $8000's. Any one come close? Even at full list, a 1000 dollars goes a long way to buying equipment. Some dealers sell complete tractor, trailer, brushhog, disc harrow, boxblade packages for aroung 10,500. A complete setup from NH like this is major $ additional. Worth considering. ....


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TomG
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2003-01-06          47025


Mark: Thanks for making the distiction. ....


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bushogbob
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2003-03-24          51788


Hi, Just found this discussion, I like it. I have the L2500 it has an over-running clutch built in. I do a lot of bushhogging with it, no problem just ease out the clutch and then bring the mower up to speed. ....


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Smahler
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2003-03-25          51830


I just want to clarify that the scenerio the original poster outlined would cause a lot of grinding of gears. If you let out the clutch in neutral and bring the hog up to speed, then step on the clutch and attempt to shift into gear, the tranny will still be spinning and there will be a significant grind. As others replied, the proper method is to let out the clutch at a low RPM in drive gear, and then increase RPM.

This issue of 'pushing' always surprises me. No tractor sold in the US since 1960 has been without a built in over-running clutch, from what I have seen....so the pushing issue is moot unless we are talking 8ns here ....


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marklugo
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2003-03-25          51869


Smahler,
I think you are badly mistaken, Many tractors have been built with out internal overide clutches and still are being made. All without 2 stage or independant clutches. Do a little more research and you will be suprised. ....


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DK35vince
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2003-03-25          51872


Well maybe you can give us an example of what some of those makes and models are without the overrunning clutch.
....


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marklugo
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2003-03-27          51972


Let's see, Mahindra has models, Belarus, Yanmar, Mitsubishi,Kubota, Ford, IH etc, they all have or had models that don't have built in overunning clutches. In fact overunning clutches that are abuilt in by the factory have been around a relatively short period of time. ....


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Peters
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2003-03-27          51997


Only about 50 years as far as I know Mark. My Supper 55 had one. Just as today they were available but many don't understand the value. ....


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DK35vince
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2003-03-27          52004


I have a 1978 John Deere 850.
25 years old,No power steering, 2 wheel drive, dry drum brakes, no sycro tranny, no 2 stage clutch, transmission driven PTO.
This thing is as plain jane as a tractor can get and still move under its own power and it still has a built in over-running clutch !!! ....


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dcsmith01
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2003-03-27          52011


My fathers 1973 L175 never had the overunning clutch. Frankly I never knew any better until I got my new machine. Your just mowing right? ....


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dcsmith01
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2003-03-27          52012


Come to think of it a lot of the old Kubota's have a mashed in grill where the enertia of the implement or tractor pushed them into something. Food for thought. My sister hit an apple tree. ....


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marklugo
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2003-03-29          52136


If this is an Oliver Super 55, then it does not have a overunning clutch. It has an independent one. I rebuilt two of them last year. It has a clutch pack just like a motorcycle inside the clutch housing that couples and uncouples the clutch. Oliver invented independent PTO's. ....


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Peters
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2003-03-29          52143


Sorry Mark;
I can see looking back that I was not following the argument with my post. I think I wrote reply and it did not post and the wrote again.
Yes there have been a lot of tractors sold without overriding clutches. I was trying to point out that the concept of indepentent or live PTO has been around for a while and it has been a matter of dollars not technology. ....


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