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49tandc
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 8 N. Central Florida
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2005-05-10          110916


I workED as a trainer for a Call Center (high attrition at call centers keep trainers employed). Last August, I was asked if I would go to Manila (in the Philipines) and train college graduates over there to do the same thing as our workers (Mostly GED graduates) here. (we pay $7/hr to start, Manila pays $2/hr to start) I had a moral/ethical dilema regarding training others to take jobs away from Americans, but you do what the boss tells you to do. I was told "no way will you lose your job - We'll get another client in here and still need top quality training..."

I was not allowed to discuss any on this with my co-workers (knowing some of them, with families, would be out of a job) because the company was afraid they'd loose the staff BEFORE the company wanted the staff to reduce.

Anyway, I go to Manila, do a good job of training the staff there and guess what happened???? I'm layed-off - as there is no need for a trainer. The company has been trying to get a new Client in this location since Sept '05 and has lots of empty seats (not good for profit-margin in a call center), but no success yet.

I understand the economics of $2/hr versus $7/hr labor market, but think that the offsahore call centers would be best suited taking Asian calls (China is biggest market) and let American customers speak/deal with American representatives.

The Philipinos have a great work ethic (they WANT to work - as opposed to many Americans. I constantly hear "Ya mean I've to be here on time - every DAY???" ), but most Philipinos have NO CLUE as to how American businesses are run - especially the support for financing/Lending/Leasing (whast we did). They do not like to tell American's "No"... They will tell our customers "Yes, I understand" - and have no comprehension of what is being asked (even after being trained). They also have a knack for not following through... They will tell our customers "Yes, I will do this.." and never do twhat was just discussed... When out poor American customer calls back next month, the agent says "there is no record of that conversation...

Thanks for letting me vent...

49T&C




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funchy
Join Date: May 2004
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2005-05-10          110921


I feel your pain. I have a bachelor's in computer science from a great university plus a ton of college credits after graduation... plus years of work experience. But the IT market is all oursourced now. Programmers in India will work for a tiny fraction of the US prices.

Now I can't find work anywhere, even if I consider commutes to philly or baltimore. My options are to go out and get a truck driver's licence or to work for Walmart.

I don't care what anyone says, this economy stinks. Corporations are too greedy. And outsourcing everything is going to end up hurting america in the long run. ....


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dsg
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 528 Franklin, Maine
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2005-05-11          110925


You know, in 2008 we could vote another republican in office to make sure corporate America keeps they're profits up:))

David ....


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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2005-05-11          110927


Yes, what kind of stinking country is this? Can you imagine a business needing to make a profit?

I think we should just turn it all over to the government to run. We can use the school district management model.

Profit! Ha! Next thing you know these uppity middle class blue collar workers will want a paycheck!

No the whole stinky thing needs to be overhauled. ....


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dsg
Join Date: Jun 1999
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2005-05-11          110944


don't give it to the government, They'll just waste it. Wait a minute, I've got an Idea, Let's give more to the employees and less to the corporate. Then the corporate will be rich but not stinking RICH and then employees can have one parent working and the other Home with the kids, WHAT A CONCEPT:))

David ....


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49tandc
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 8 N. Central Florida
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2005-05-11          110948


I fully understand companies wanting to make a profit. My beef was putting American workers on the unemployment line and put the money they would hav paid our workers into another country. I fully understand the economics of a $2.00 per hour labor base. My point was to apply that labor base towards the asian market and let American customers be services by American reprentitives.

As this client was one of the "big 3" computer companies, (and ALL computer companies use offshore call centers for support)your business will be routed to one of these offshore locations (Manila, Bangalore, etc.). Most of the callers end up frustrated with the communication barrier (yes, they speak english, but the comprehension is different) or the to the customer's problems are not fully resolved - causing the customer to call back again (hence driving up the support costs for the computer company). The goal is "first call resolution" - meaning the customer's problem is resolved onthe first call. If it isn't, the computer company has to pay the representative to take the customers call again (and again...)

I have no problem with companies making profits via cheap labor - there is a HUGE pool of money waiting for them in the shape of China (where they wouldn't know the difference between poor customer service and world-class customer service). I'm just mad about American's losing their jobs (not just mine) to a foreign country.

49 T&C ....


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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2005-05-12          110982


Myself, I like it when corporations make profits and get rich. It makes my retirement investments grow like weeds. Demonizing corporations is like demonizing your neighbors - most are publicly owned and some are poorly behaved.

Corporations are abusing the H1-B visa program though. They can only do this because they are paying off politicians. So the politicians of both parties are failing in this regard. H1B visa holders make the best employees - they can pay them half of what a comparable American citizen would make, and if they quit they get sent back to their home country. It's almost like a captive employee base that gets punished severely if they quit. This trend began in the 90's under a democratic administration, with the support of both political parties.

As a freelance software engineer I hate seeing the jobs go overseas. It certainly has affected my work. There is hope though, at least in high tech. I know a guy from India who started his own software company. Initially he used programmers in India. He ended up moving all the jobs back into the US because he had difficulty finding Indian programmers who could problem solve. They could write code if they were told how the algorithms worked, but they were reluctant to strike out on their own to invent solutions to problems. There are many brilliant Indian programmers, but the code mills mostly staff run-of-the-mill types who need to be told exactly what to do on a daily basis.

Then there's idiotic corporations like Intel. To save money they outsource much of their software work to India. Then they create and staff a communication department to act as a liason with the folks in India by providing time-shifting and translation services. They haven't saved a dime, their time-to-market has doubled and the quality is down. But they're convinced it's a good thing. Sell your Intel stock, these people are morons. ....


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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
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2005-05-12          110985


We Americans are a strange bunch! We want HIGH wages and every benefit ever imagined but we want to buy cheap shit.

When we buy stock in some company, we want that stock to soar. Who gives a crap how they do it, as long as it goes up.

Come on now, you can't have your cake and eat it too. It would be a wise decision to bring your lifestyle down to reality before you bite off more than you can chew ;)

It's a Dog eat Dog world out there, my friends. It's just a matter of whose dog can hunt. ....


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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2005-05-12          110991


Hey Billy. Long time no see.

Hope all is well at the Passmore homestead! ....


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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
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2005-05-13          111018


Hey Mark, everything is going pretty good around here. Hope you and yours are doing good too. Thanks for asking. ....


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Iowafun
Join Date: Jul 2004
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2005-05-14          111044


I've been wathcing outsourcing go on for several years now. The call center/customer service side is one that I see as eventually coming back to the US. That's for some of the points being made already. First time call resolution is poorer in other countries with low labor. The cheap labor pool may not have the comprehension. Your customers aregetting dissatisfied and will take their business elsewhere.

Will it be perfect? No. It's going to take time for the shift back to happen. Also, other countried are starting to see a shift up in wages as more companies move work overseas. That's unsustainable. Eventually the business model doesn't work as the local wages increase.

You are seeing that in China. Their wages have jumped 30% or so recently as competition for workers increases. Owners over there that were relaying on thin margins are seeing it shrink even more as their labor costs have gone up. Eventually they are having to pass that cost on or risk losing money. They are also having the steel and energy costs rise as well. A triple whammy for them. As their costs go up, eventually the model doesn't make sense and more stuff will stay in the US.

It takes time. It hurts in the short run. But it will come back. Especially as companies see how expensive it is for all the IT outsourcing that needs to get done beacuse they've cut back the local employees so much. We're seeing that now. Major revenue generating projects are on hold because we lack the IT resources and overseas won't work for those projects. ....


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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2005-05-14          111049


I read an article by a guy who went to China to observe their manufacturing processes. He interviewed the manager of a plant that used lots of cheap manual labor. The manager reported that they would be automating their manufacturing process due to the high cost of labor. It's all relative. ....


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tractorbrad
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 55 northeast ohio
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2005-05-16          111104


Not to sound confrontational but the "filipino's great work ethnic" and "not following through and doing what they say they will do" does not sound like great work ethnics to me but rather like marginal employees. To my way of thinking showing up on time and doing your job well goes hand in hand no matter what your nationality. I feel bad for every hard working individual who loses his or her job due to unfair labor practices but as long as we as a people knowingly reward companies who do this it's going to continue to go on. I had to get this off my chest so I'll get off my soap box now and put it away. ....


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JAZAK5
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 276 coxsackie,ny
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2005-05-17          111196


you want to see a real cluster f ck.
try the prison system.
they dump millions of your tax money into programs that are proven not to work,call it theraputic programing,release them,they still can't or won't work, so the state hires them as counslers(so they can legally support their illegal habits)just to say their "programs work"
soo sorrrrry
had to vent while the gettings good ;) ....


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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2005-05-17          111205


DSG
I fear Hilary C! Unless someone comes into the pic from out of nowhere, I do believe we will see our ex First Lady as the first lady Pres. I dont fear it cause she is a lady just because she is THE LADY. From my prospective the Rep. have NO one that can compete (so far) And she will wipe out ALL other Dem. You will get your wish sooner than you think! I think? OH Did you hear who she will run with? Try Martha stewart!!!! ROTFLMAO. She will be a shoe in!
Sorry to hear about your job going over sea's. It is a cryin shame. ....


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dsg
Join Date: Jun 1999
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2005-05-18          111215


It isn't my wish to see Hilary as president. I'd rather see a male president and I don't care what party he's from as long as he is a middle of the road kind of guy and somewhere near honest. I know, thats a tall order for a politician.

David ....


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JAZAK5
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 276 coxsackie,ny
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2005-05-21          111347


To h-ll with HILARY !!!
This liberal ran on the ticket of bringing lots of jobs back to NY.She hasnt done sh_t !!!! The way the countrys economy is tanking and "outsourcing" is taking our jobs.

We need to shut down our immagration policies and put the lazy parisites on our failed social programs to work even if it calls for performance advancements based on "piece work" ....


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WillieH
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 543 New England
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2006-01-19          123033


Man...Can I relate!
I have been in the manufacturing sect for my entire career as a field service engineer (not to boast) with a college degree as well as growing up in a shop environment. Went into CNC tooling, Packaging, commercial kitchen equipment, back to CNC, back to the Packaging industry, and on and on. Why, you ask?
Because manufacturing has virtually disappeared from the American way of life, and sold out thru various "trade" treaties over the years, to "boost the American economy", to off shore countries. It does not matter if we are talking customer service positions, training poaitions, manufacturing, whatever...they have mostly been pushed out to cheaper labor rate countries, leaving the americans that actually desire to work an honest day, holding the bag.
Hey have you all heard ?
Remember "the Duke" ? Winchester Arms located in southern CT, otherwise known as U S Repeating Firearms, is closing up and going over seas! Winchester!
Picture the Duke ambling up to you and saying..."Well Howdy, Partner" with pronouncing his l's as r's and with squinty eyes!
Yea, it hits me hard, as this was once a thriving business, and one of my longtime customers.
Cheers to the ORIGINAL Winchester!

-Willie H ....


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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2006-01-19          123034


Willie........ where ya been? Welcome back. We have been missing your vintage 'Bota advice.

Is Winchester moving ALL manufacturing operations to Japan? ....


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DenisS
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 367 NJ
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2006-01-19          123035


The economy of this country grew to become the greatest in the world under the protection of trade tarriffs. We need to bring them back, especially to defend against wage differences. The corporations cannot afford to avoid the american consumer market, so anyone who outsources labor will be hit with tarrifs when those sneakers, toys or computer chips come back to the US. Bottom line is - if you want to sell in the US, make it in the US or pay a price. ....


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WillieH
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2006-01-19          123038


DRankin-
Thanks, Good to be back, too!

As far as I know, as of March of this year the doors are shut, and production is finished. Any "older" stock, will no longer be available, and, any new components and/or issues, will be made abroad - somewhere.

(btw, I love your manger scene!)

-Willie H ....


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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2006-01-19          123040


To buy you need to sell. The US dollars must return in one way or the other. Currently the money from China is coming back to buy the factory and close it down. The latest here is the local furnature industry. Action will be Actchung and Lazyboy will be LaZhubo pretty soon.

I agree we need to protect the value added manufacturing with some restrictions. Unfortunately the current admin seem intent on tarrifs on raw materials like lumber. ....


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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2006-01-19          123044


This is not just one industry but hits most if not all. Today it was announce (not locally) that a Canadian paper had story on one of their companies buying large lumber company here. Watch out for Murf and others here with their lumber and Cat equipment.

One industry I think we could save a lot moving offshore and (Haiti is close) is our prisions. Why not? Hey conract with China on those and let us build tractors here. Repeat offenders sure would be down. Once news got around so would first timers.

There was short note that per Farm Bureau we will be moving farming off shore in near furture. Now, I tell you, I can do without a lot that is going that way but food is sort of one of my fondest items.

Tell me how the turkey farmer in North Carolina can buy Brazil soybeans cheaper than those grown in field next to his turkeys? It is more than labor cost.

As to problems with overseas call centers, I have terminated business with a company because of that. Reasons already given on poor service.

Hey, if it keeps up, the open border issue will be solved for the U.S. Guess the Rio Grande will not be what they are swimming.
....


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DenisS
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 367 NJ
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2006-01-19          123045


I like the idea about off-shoring the entire penal system. We could rent the convicts for the term of their incarceration to China and Indonesia and use the profits to compensate the victims. While we're at it, I would send a barge or too full of ACLU lawyers the same way (those I would give away for free). ....


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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
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2006-01-19          123048


Just how many ACLU lawyers will fit on a barge? Could we not go with the mega containter ship?

Another industry we ought to ship offshore.....it is many billions....many depend on it.....not sure how they were survive....politics....

You know guys, more common sense has been expressed here than in DC for a long time. Not just Rep or Dem. ....


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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
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2006-01-19          123049


49,

I am sorry I got on with my thoughts and concerns and missed something.

I am sorry for your loss. It can tear at your gut and heart. I used to work for a world leader in mfg that said they were not worried about any other company. TOday there name is no longer found.

If I may give you a thought. It may be that you either by yourself or with some of the others there could form your own company doing just what the company was doing. You already know the reasons you should be used compared to the offshore people. Go to US companies and tell your story. You might just be surprised who will agree with you. Look at all size companies. Think of business similiar to the company you were a call center for. Think of local companies they have service call needs and is growing and having problem hiring. They may be glad to contract with someone.

I don't sell airplanes but was told years ago they are sold per cost per passenger mile. That is what you are saying on recalls and complaints.

I do wish you and your friends well. The US still has more opportunity than any other nation. THat is what ever alien is saying.

kt ....


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SG8NUC
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2006-01-19          123050


If you want to know how many ACLU lawyers will fit on the barge tell them Hilary is on board. ....


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kthompson
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2006-01-19          123054


SG,

That is cold. Not as cold as the heart of an ACLU lawyer.

....


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countryboy
Join Date: Jan 2006
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2006-01-19          123058


all, you need to think about this thread the next time you walk into WALMART or price a JINMA tractor. ....


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PacersDad
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 0 My heart is in NC. Body in MA.
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2006-01-20          123076


I'd like to find a new tractor comparable to my brothers 1959 Fordson Super Dexta. It was built by Ford in England. same frame size as the asian compacts. Ford and Perkins developed the 3.152 perkins deisel in this frame. It still works good. FEL and backhoe with a ROPS / canopy. You couldn't get this much service out of any asian tractor. We broke a Yanmar back axle trying to move the backhoe. I'm sure a jinma would do the same.
On the other topic, I stopped being a republican when Cheney wore a purpleheart band-aid. Look at Halliburton, the deficit. Watched troops in New Orleans target rural gunowners, because they were registered, to seize firearms and force them to leave undamaged properties, while city was under-seige by illegal gunowners? How about Osama popping up right before the election and now popping up right during Patriot act? ....


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SG8NUC
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2006-01-20          123092


what tractor does not have asian influnence. When I found out about JD I almost vaporlocked. I did have to have the brace for my FEL on my Farm Pro 2425 welded. I wont say rewelded because the welder that fixed it said it would have been better if they would have used glue. The dealer I bought it from puts 1000 hours a year on the Jinma's he runs them until they blow up or wear out for $3000 or a $14000 JD either way he has a worn out tractor. This guy is a buiness man with a blue berry farm with 20,000 plus acres trying to keep his nose above water. We would all have to ask what would we do. He has never denied me parts off his tractors or information and this is why service is better in the US and this guy that lost his job will be missed by us all. We should have listened to Ross Proit and his pie charts. ....


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sloancon
Join Date: Nov 2005
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2006-01-20          123113


I would like to know if you would have posted if your moral/ethical dilema didn't mean lossing your job. You knew your coworkers, that you couldn't talk too were going to loose their jobs,
....


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grinder
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2006-01-21          123151


The "New American Way"
Profit at any expence! ....


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kthompson
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2006-02-16          124639


49tandc,

Have wondered about you and what is going on.

Last night I listen to a talkshow fill in for Dr. Michael Savage on talk radio. He was talking about the sorry lot of trying to get customer service with his airline and their nonusa telephone service call center. He was expressing what you said he would.

FYI I called my local IP and got hit with a foregin call center also, Missouri.

kt ....


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