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Summer winter diesel conditioners

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glalonde
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 18 near Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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2003-09-29          65075


I just came back from the JD dealership. I bought the winter conditionner (same chemical as summer + anti-gel).

Since the price for both types of conditionners is the same, I do not understand why having 2 types ?
Why not having the one with the anti-gel only ? Or is it because the anti-gel one does some 'funnies' in the summer ?

Guillaume




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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-09-29          65077


Since glalond has already seen the information posted here (as noted in the below post) I have removed it to save limited storage space on Dennis's system. The original information was posted here as such because a user name and password was required to access the information and a link to the info. would not have worked. ....


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glalonde
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 18 near Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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2003-09-29          65083


Thanks Chief,

I did read this article before. What I do not understand is point "6. Why was a summer and winter formula introduced? ..."

It says that both conditionners are the same except 'without the costly winterization components'.
However, the price at the JD shop is the same for both conditionners so why create 2 different types if no money is saved ? Why not having just the winterize version so that both summer and winter can be covered with just one type of conditionner ? I would understand if there was a big difference in price but such is not the case. ....


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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-09-29          65092


You are right about the price, but the Winter Formula is a little cheaper. I looked up the MSDS sheet for both and here are the constituent chemical make ups:

Winter Formula:

2-Ethylhexyl Nitrate 15%
Ethylene Glycol Monomethyl Ether 5%
Heavy Aromatic Naptha 75%
Oeamide Diethylamine 5%

Summer Formula:

Oleamide Diethylamine 20%
Proprentary Ester 5%
Substituted Amine Resin 5%
Heavy Aromatic Naphtha 60%

I am sure some of the chemical engineers will jump in here, and make sure I am correct, but I believe that the Oleamide Diethylamine is a Cetane booster and the Summer Formula raises Cetane more than the Winter Formula.

The 2-Ethylhexyl Nitrate and Ethylene Glycol Monomethyl Ether, I believe are anti-gelling/icing agents.

Anyhow, I hope this makes it clear as mud now? ;-) I use the Summer Formula because of the added Cetane booster and it does not get that cold in TN.

If you want them, I can email you the MSDS's. By the way this fuel conditioner is made by Gold Eagle Company (look familiar????) Same folks who make StaBil gas stabilizer and some other automotive de-icers, etc. ....


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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2003-09-29          65095


I hope none of that from JD was copywrited. ....


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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-09-29          65106


harvey,

It is all public information from the John Deere web site.

....


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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2003-09-29          65107


I can not see how a company could get aggrivated about reprinting a information sheet that is part advertising. I guess you never know these days. ....


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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2003-09-30          65113


My point is usually (I'll use that word loosely) all web sites have a small statement that all content is the property of owner and can not be copied or reporduces by any means w/o permission.

I believe dennis even has one on here somewhere.

Not trying to rock the boat but awareness of copywrite issues is a good thing. ....


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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-09-30          65125


Tested before, as Gold Eagle, Didn't give us good results, try power service!!! You won't go back! ....


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glalonde
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 18 near Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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2003-09-30          65127


Thank you all,

So there's is actually more than just the anti-gel difference between summer & winter. The concentration (in %) of the same chemicals is also different.

Guillaume ....


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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-09-30          65128


The info. is off of John Deere's MSDS sheets for their fuel conditioner. I think Art has a good point. I also use Power Service. Good stuff at a much cheaper price. ....


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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-09-30          65129


Copyright is civil rather than criminal law. Plaintiffs have to show damage, which doesn't seem too likely here. The warnings on sites mostly have the effect of informing somebody who might use content for their own gain that it is not public domain information. The wording may be pretty rough but damage still has to be shown. The statements also provide site owners partial protection against third party suits, which may be the main reason for having them.

I'm aware of copyright law when I post an occasional scan of a drawing from a parts manual. I do it only to illustrate a point and never to allow somebody to do a repair job without buying the same manuals and books I bought. Nice to be helpful but it's good for people to have manuals and for the publishers to make enough profit to keep printing them too. ....


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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-09-30          65130


Many often increase your cetane rating for winter mix. ....


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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-09-30          65135


These ARE PUBLIC information intended to be downloaded by the public from John Deere or they would not post them.

They even say as much here:

http://www.deere.com/en_US/deerecom/privacy_legal/legalnotice.html

http://64.22.203.54/xpedio/groups/public/documents/msds_sheets/001730.pdf

....


Link:   Deere Winter Diesel Fuel Conditioner MSDS

 

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-10-01          65212


Chief: I'm on your side here. My point was that no matter how copyright statements are worded the general principle under civil law is 'no harm no foul.' I think it'd be real hard to make a case that JD might be damaged by this discussion. It might even help them. I do reach somewhat different conclusions than yours after reading the JD statement though. ....


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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-10-01          65217


Thanks for the words of support and opinion Tom. I will keep that in mind in the future. My intent was to provide some requested information about the difference between these two products for the original poster glalonde. ....


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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-10-01          65221


I must have at least one hundred posts on this site that I cut and pasted from other places. I guess Chief and I will will go to jail together.

While they are hauling me off they will probably find out that I didn't pay sales tax on my last tractor purchase and really throw the book at me. Further research will reveal that I sold a tractor to a guy and didn't charge him sales tax and I traded in a tractor in a state that does not even have sales tax. I may never get out.

This is not Napster. This stuff is in the public domain and is not for sale. No one is deprived of income by the information Chief and I post. Nor is there any hint that we pass off the work of others as our own or that we make money while doing so.

If anything, what we do encourages exploration of different products and web sites and may actually increase exposure and sales for the company in question. Such information exchange is at the heart of what this web site is about.

We do live in an era where abundant caution is necessary, but if we are going to pick these nits we may as well fold our tents and go home.

....


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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma
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2003-10-01          65222


I believe you're safe Chief :)

The JD MSDS isn't copyright protected ....


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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-10-01          65223


It seems to me this whole MSDS copywrite discussion is silly. MSDS' are mandated by the government to be made freely available to the public. If you can't copy and paste info that is required to be freely available then it's time to shoot all the lawyers. Wait - didn't that time come about 40 years ago? ....


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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2003-10-01          65227


Even friends of mine that are lawyers think that it is time to shoot the lawyers. There is probably no need to resolve this copyright/MSDS dispute first. ;-} ....


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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-10-02          65283


I think you're likely technically right on the copyright stuff. I also think it's good to avoid making up personalities for people on the basis of posts. You can't really know where somebody is coming from taking to them face to face most times let alone through posts. Personalities likely don't serve a useful purpose here anyway. ....


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