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kthompson
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2007-08-24          144983


Due to conversation on another thread thought this might be good. Thought it would be good for input on what the grower does get for those who have no idea.


The product I know of the highest ratio is local produce. The store will pay up to 50% of the retail price. However not always and they may only count what is sold. kt




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Murf
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2007-08-24          144985


Jeff, don't make any comments about "chicken feed"...... ;)

Seriously, I don;'t know about chickens, we eat all that we raise. :)

We sell potatoes directly to the grocery stores, we get paid about 70% of retail prices, but don't get paid till it sells in the store. We absorb out of that all costs up to and including packaging and delivery directly to each store.

Best of luck. ....


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crunch
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2007-08-24          144992


When I was a kid I went with my neighbor fruit farmers to the New York City Bronx market and watched them sell fruit by the box off their trucks. It was great watching the store keepers and the farmers negotiating every deal. Lots of fun and lots of give and take.

One store keeper came every week - tasted the cherries, spit them out like he hated them. Then the farmer gets pissed since this guys buys every week, reaches in the store keepers pocket, grabs his wallet, counts out money for himself and puts the boxes in the storekeepers wagon.

A few years later all the farmers bought diesel trucks and had pre-arranged deals with all the grocery stores. Just load the truck - bring to the supermarkets distribution center - and unload the truck. Maybe easier for the farmer but not as much fun for me to watch. ....


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hardwood
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2007-08-25          145002


Other than feed grains, soybeans, hay, milk and meat I know very little about what the farmer gets for raw produce, (fruits, veggies, ornamental plants, etc.) It seems that the farmers markets are getting more popular each year locally. Nobody wants the grocery store to go broke, but the ability to buy the produce direct from the person harvested it at sunrise on the day you buy it is neat. I think we, (me included) tend to take for granted the fact that we can go into a grocery store here in the northern climates in mid winter and buy fresh fruits and veggies that may not have been picked at sunrise, but are of a quality that people in lesser developed countrys have never had the opportunity or financial means to enjoy. Last time I checked, the people of the USA spent the smallest percentage of their paycheck for food, (excluding paper, plastic, etc. non food itemss) of any developed nation in the world. I don't want to see this or any other thread turn into a "Feel Sorry for Farmers" discussion. I've been a farmers since I was a senior in High School. It was my chosen profession, you took the risks on your own, sometimes you won sometimes you lost, I would do the same thing again if I started over. Frank. ....


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candoarms
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2007-08-25          145006


Frank,

The food we buy on the grocer's shelves isn't as cheap as we might believe. Of course, the price we pay for a gallon of gasoline is also much higher than we pay at the pump.

Due to the taxes we pay to support the various farm programs, there is a hidden expense in most every farm produced product we purchase. This hidden expense is taken out of each paycheck we bring home.

In the case of gasoline, it is nearly double the pump price. This is due to the huge military expense which is put in place to keep our footprints in the middle east nations.

Our low grocery prices can be rather deceptive. Of course, the same is true for the price we pay for electricity, as most utility companies are collecting government subsidies for which to produce their products.

Bottom line.......we have to remember that the price we pay at the counter is only a portion of the actual price we pay.

Joel ....


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hardwood
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2007-08-25          145015


Joel; I do feel sorry for you that you cannot accept the privlidge you have of the cheapest, most plentiful, safest food supply on the face of the earth that you can enjoy. Do your kids eat hot lunch at school? Do you go to national parks? Do you see the meat inspectors at the packing house? Do the poor in your community get food assistrance? those are just a few of the direct benefits to YOU. As I pointed out before, the farmer gets a a short eleven percent of the total funds in the farm bill. Go to an under developed country, stand in line for poor quality foods and give the lion's of your pay to get it. I will not respond to any more of your unfounded direct attacks on the American Farmer. Frank. ....


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crunch
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2007-08-25          145017


Joel, you are in a fantasy world. The price we pay is the price we pay. There are no hidden costs in the price of food. The taxes we pay are the result of government - not the result of food prices. ....


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candoarms
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2007-08-26          145021


Crunch,

Since Frank takes my comments as a direct attack on him and his profession, I'll stay away from his comments and address yours, instead.

Politics, being what it is in this nation today, makes it very difficult to carry on a sensible conversation with most anyone. As is the case here, making enemies is very easy to do, as no matter which subject we bring up, somebody is going to be offended. Such is life.

However, this fact doesn't prevent me from addressing some of the most troubling aspects of our country, our government, or our laws.

Farmers are highly subsidized by tax dollars. There is no denying this fact. It's easy to prove. Most every farm commodity produced in this nation has some sort of government program attached to it, and in many cases this money goes directly to a "farmer".

The products produced by our farmers are sold at market, and the consumer pays a certain price for those items. Then, on April 15th of each year, the consumer pays an additional amount for those same items, because every consumer of farm products is being forced to contribute some additional part of his wages to taxes....some of which goes toward financing the farm program.

In other words, the price we pay at the grocery store isn't exactly the final price. There is a hidden price in those goods, which is extracted from us at a later date.

Over the past 10 years, the American taxpayer has been charged over 129 BILLION dollars for farm subsidy programs.
If I assume that there are 300 million people in this country, then each American has contributed 430 dollars in taxes to support these programs over the past ten years.

I find it difficult to believe that any farmer would attack me for my comments, when I am a farmer myself. I'm simply trying to point out something that most farmers don't wish to discuss, because they believe it to be a direct attack against them. HARDLY. In fact, the opposite is true.

Most farmers would like to see the subsidy programs come to an end. Most farmers, like me, would like to make an honest living selling what they raise and grow, rather than collect a government subsidy payment to help make ends meet. Yet when we look at who gets that 430 dollars paid by every taxpayer for these programs, it's most likely not the farmers. In almost every case, it's the big corporations who have their grubby little fingers in the collection plate.

If I could prove to any farmer that the subsidy programs are not helping them, but are actually helping billionaires get richer, I might be able to get somebody to listen........but as Frank proved here, it's almost impossible to ever get that far into this topic with any farmer. Most farmers are just too sensitive for their own good.

Joel ....


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crunch
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2007-08-26          145027


Cando, I just think that everyone knows about the price that is extracted from us on April 15. That goes into the total bucket known as taxes. Its not hidden in the price we pay. I think we can argue about anything that is in the tax bucket. That includes subsidies for cooperative extension services, land grant universities like Rutgers and Penn State, etc.

I am not ready to say these are bad or good things. I tend to think many of these services are good. I myself worked on milk pricing algorithms while at Penn State and now my BIL works on removing subsidies for the government. He is representing the government as they hold local hearings around the country and are ruling on issues as subsidies are removed. (He is not a well liked person at these meetings).

I think the total bucket called taxes is pretty well understood that these benefit some and take money from others. ....


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pelletfarmer
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2007-08-26          145037


Hey, crunch..."I think the total bucket called taxes is pretty well understood that these benefit some and take money from others."

Sure, but the size of the bucket is misunderstood! You guys are mostly talking about income taxes and subsidies, but you're missing the "recursiveness" of those, not to mention the zillion other taxes.

Ever been in a poker game with a 10% rake? Play long enough, and the house gets all the money.

The money the farmer gets for his product goes not only for income taxes, but property taxes, sales taxes, phone taxes (take a look at your bill lately?), and on and on. But that's not even it...what about what he pays directly for product and equipment, even besides his taxes? THAT guy (company) pays income taxes and property taxes and...

And what HE pays for HIS raw materials...well, you get the idea. Think about it...the house gets all the money. And we haven't even begun talking about what that "money" is and who prints it!

I had to chime in with that, though I could write a bit more on the morality of taking from some and giving to others. More on-topic, I'm a newbie here and really appreciate the TRACTOR stuff, so thanks to everyone for all the good advice.
....


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crunch
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2007-08-26          145044


Pelletfarmer, I understand the recursive nature of taxes. I have a PhD in statistics and am an economist by training. I hear people talk about this all the time. Lets not get too complicated about this. You pay a given price for goods and services and you pay the government a percent of your income in taxes. I'm not going to analyze what goes into the price that I pay. If I'm willing to pay the price - then it is worth what I pay. ....


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candoarms
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2007-08-26          145046


Crunch,

You're right, of course, but for the fact that you've left out the enormous amount of debt that our government has run up over the years. In order to pay off this tremendous amount of debt, which now exceeds 11 trillion dollars (including the unfunded mandates), our grandkids are going to have to pay dearly.

Nothing is free. And things that seem cheap today will come back to haunt us in the end.

Joel ....


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crunch
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2007-08-26          145048


Cando, I will agree that taxes are too high. Many services, even at the local level, become part of the infrastructure. Then we all assume we need to have this infrastructure forever. ....


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pelletfarmer
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2007-08-26          145054


"I'm not going to analyze what goes into the price that I pay."

Oh. Then it's no wonder you don't acknowledge the size of the bucket!

Me, I'm going back to analyzing box scrapers. Not only is it more enjoyable, but it's tons more productive. ....


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kthompson
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2007-08-27          145067


Dumb me, should have titles it

Rip Off Taxes or such.

As a small farmer, hate to hurt any of your feelings, do not get any Federal tax relief that any other business does not get. If I make money I pay income tax. If I loose money I get to deduct some (not always all of it) that.

On the state level there is some relief with lower property taxes on forestry and agriculture land. Some products do have reduced or no sales tax.

The amount of capital gains on land and inheritance taxes paid by the FARMER and RURAL LAND owners just might surprise a lot of you. That is one reason so many family farms can not make it with the passing of a generation is due to TAXES they have to pay.

Let me help some of you so concerned about all the tax money given to the farmer; at the rate the US is going it will not be long before we must import food. (We already import more than many realize.) Then using the oil thought guess we must have soliders from the Mexico border south, right?

When the farmer in the US finally closes, what happens to all those industries who depend on the US Farmer and logger? Look honestly at your own income and you probably will find income from the farm at one level or another. kt

....


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candoarms
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2007-08-27          145071


KThompson,

Let's put the shoe on the other foot for a minute here.

The little cafe, on Main Street, is just as dependent on the farm income as my family is. But, when winter comes to North Dakota, our farmers head south to Yuma, Phoenix, Key West, etc.

Without their government CRP payments, they wouldn't be able to afford these long winter vacations.

And while they are gone, that little cafe on Main Street closes their doors......for lack of business.

The government subsidy payments have killed the small towns in this country, along with the businesses that once operated in them.

When a farmer retires, he should be forced to do what every other business owner does.......sell his assets and use that money for his retirement. Instead, only the farmer can lease his land to the Federal Government and live off of the taxpayers.

I find it rather amazing that a farmer can finance his retirement on the backs of the taxpayer. NO OTHER person in this country can do that.

Joel ....


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Murf
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2007-08-27          145074


Joel, you were closest to the real story when you said "There is a hidden price in those goods, which is extracted from us at a later date.".

Of course that can be said about nearly anything if you look hard enough.

Is it "free" to drive down the street in front of your house merely because there is no toll booth?

When you call a Gov. office to ask a question they don't ask you for any money before you get an answer, does that mean it was "free"?.

You speak of economics like you understand it, yet you have not seemed to take into account the economy of scale, if the gov. at various levels, in the absence of anyone else doing it, acts as an umbrella group to fund and later recoup things like the extension offices and agricultural research are spread over the entire agricultural community, not JUST the rich farm corporations that could afford such things.

Besides your mathematics are a little flawed, ok, really flawed, you figured that each American has contributed $430 to farm by dividing the amount spent on farm subsidies by the population. I could have sworn I just read somewhere that the US export more than $68 billion in agricultural products in just the year 2006, and over $5 trillion in the last 10 years. If those numbers are correct, then $129 billion is something on the order of a few percentage points.

Not a bad INVESTMENT in my mind.


Best of luck. ....


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candoarms
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2007-08-27          145079


Murf,

The federal government has spent 129 billion dollars on just farm subsidy payments over the past 10 years.

Most of that money came from the Social Security trust fund.....as if there really was or is such a thing.

Joel ....


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Murf
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2007-08-27          145081


Joel, never mind the 'trickle down' effect inside the US, in which domestic spending (farm owners and workers) and taxation (sales tax, farm land tax, fuel tax, etc.) on domestic agricultural products.

Look at it this way, the 'subsidy' amounts to about 2.5% of money coming into this country from the exports alone.

Best of luck. ....


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candoarms
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2007-08-27          145082


Murf,

I fear that most people do just that.

What's a few billion here, and a few billion there, when compared to amount of money being spent on other things?

Not one American runs his own checkbook with this line of thinking in mind.......OK...maybe a few do. hehehe.

At any rate, most Americans feel that this "small" amount of money is unimportant in the overall scope of things. In truth, it all adds up. However, there are probably a million programs and agencies that I would put the axe to, if given the chance. I vote only for people who share this goal.


Joel ....


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Murf
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2007-08-27          145085


Joel, I think the problem is you understand economics.

Spending does not necessarily mean the money is gone.

If you spend $10 and in doing so save $100 are you out $10 or up $90?

Economy of scale means that the bigger the commercial operation the more efficient (in theory) it is, the lower the costs are, the more profitable it is.

If the commercial operation is our farmers, I want them to be as profitable as possible, as of course I assume you do too.

Best of luck. ....


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candoarms
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2007-08-27          145088


Murf,

If I spend a 10 dollar bill to make 100 dollars, I'd have a 1000% gain on my investment. That isn't going to draw an argument from me, at all!

But, if I am forced to give 10 dollars to a corporation, so that it can set up shop in Cambodia, in order to compete against me, I get flaming mad.

Joel ....


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Murf
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2007-08-27          145090


Oh, I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about US farm subsidies.

Best of luck. ....


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candoarms
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2007-08-27          145091


Murf,

I am speaking of U.S. Farm Subsidies. The problem is, Sir, most people don't really know or care where the greatest share of that money is going.

The largest beneficiaries from the Farm Program, are the huge multi-national corporations. The average American farmer collects very little, but just try finding one American farmer who will fight these enormous rip-offs.

Joel

....


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Murf
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2007-08-27          145095


Joel, again I say I don't think you quite understand the economics you are railing against.

It's sort of an apples & oranges thing. I agree the small farmers are not partaking in these subsidy programs, but try and find a small farmer with the resources to get registered, etc., with these programs.

Even if they can do that they don't even qualify for the most lucrative ones which are geared to things such as direct payments linked to distribution, export credits, marketing assistance loans and price guarantees on foreign sales.

What small farmer in the US is going to send "staff" overseas to develop a foreign sales base?

Come on, of course the recipients are rich multi-nationals.

What's next? That we would have a nation of home-based auto manufacturers if not for the big subsidies to Detroit? ....


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kthompson
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2007-08-27          145097



It amazes me how much it seems farming varies across this country. Here are few if any large corporation owned farms unless you mean a family corporation of which there is a few. Here the farmer does sell the farm for his retirement if he ever retires. Most farm until they die if their health allows it. Or they rent the land to another farmer. Development here is pushing the farm land into housing so guess all those grants are going to the builder now.

Those lazy sorry builders who use workers from Mexico and other countries! Paid for by US tax payers. Well we do pay for them as tax payers as we fund their Medicaid, Food stamps and schooling. Not counting all the people who have been killed or injured or just suffered property damage by those who have no license, no insurance and are not here the day after the accident to pay if they could. Yes many of those are employed by large Corps. of which you just may own stock.

Being nosey Joel, but please what business are you in that does not have some hidden tax or other government support? It surely is not the gun industry. Just how much is spent for the searches done to approve a purchase and other regulations and such. That is right; there is a tax on those products when sold. Gee, I believe there is tax on food when sold, also clothes and all farm grown products or in my world there is. If no sales tax who benefits, the seller or the buyer? I believe an honest survey of the US tax code and government programs will find almost all industries have their hands out somewhere. As to the little cafe, want to see their doors really close, let the safe US and Canada grown food disappear at the price they are and they will not close for the winter only. The cafe is interesting. There large corporations own the farms whose owner live in the South during the winter but all those owners of that large corp. are there in the growing season...to do what eat? I do not believe owners of large corporation owned farms work on those farms. Does ADM require stockholders to work on the farm now? ;) So are you saying the workers make enough they winter in a warmer climate?

Guess trying to give any insight into the margins the farm works with is not possible. Let me say to those here who farm in any manner thank you for all you do for the food on our tables. You don't make near what you should, regardless of what the government does. If you can afford to winter in a warmer climate, glad to have you, we appreciate the money you spend for food and housing here! Keeps our cafe open during the winter! BTW, that is when the seafood is the best and most of the tourists have gone home! :) kt
....


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AnnBrush
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2007-08-27          145099


Compared to other nations - we pay very LITTLE tax in the US. My total tax burden is about 27% of my income (income tax, property taxes, sales tax etc) In a previous life I was paying about 56%.

Plus if you are grumpy about paying too much tax vote in a party that really wants to reduce the size of Government - Oh wait we don't have one of those! ....


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candoarms
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2007-08-27          145103


Let's talk farm subsidies. And let's leave out the small American farmer......because what he collects amounts to peanuts.

These are the top recipients of U.S. farm subsidies in the U.S., since 1995.

Note how many banks and investment boards are included in this list.

Total USDA Subsidies1995-2005

Riceland Foods Inc Stuttgart, AR 72160 $541,061,667
Producers Rice Mill Inc Wynne, AR 72396 $308,013,630
Farmers Rice Coop Sacramento, CA 95851 $145,530,214
Chs Inc Saint Paul, MN 55164 $49,037,456
Tyler Farms ✴ Helena, AR 72342 $37,009,744
Dnrc Trust Land Helena, MT 59620 $35,314,692
1st National Bank Sioux Falls, SD 57101 $28,871,163
Ducks Unlimited Rancho Cordova,CA 95670 $28,338,088

NOTE: Over 80 percent of the payments listed for Ducks Unlimited are 'cost share' reimbursements for technical assistance to restore wetlands at many locations on private lands not owned by D.U. The technical assistance is provided to private landowners under contractual arrangement through USDA's Natural Resources Conservation Service.

Pilgrim's Pride Corporation Pittsburg,TX 75686 $26,461,206
Missouri Delta Farms Sikeston, MO 63801 $25,280,578
Montana Board Of Investments -St Paul, MN 55108 $21,062,181
Bia Ada, OK 74821 $18,606,320
Cargill Seed Winnipeg, Mb R3c 4c5, $17,593,150
J G Boswell Co Corcoran, CA 93212 $17,290,870
Dublin Farms Corcoran, CA 93212 $16,550,984
Due West Glendora, MS 38928 $16,432,782
Morgan Farms Cleveland, MS 38732 $15,548,876
Walker Place Danville, IL 61832 $14,773,588
Napi Farmington, NM 87499 $14,583,017
C.r.i.t. Farms Parker, AZ 85344 $14,141,411

Joel


....


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crunch
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2007-08-27          145108


My pet peeve would be people on wall street who make money on insider knowledge. Money is siphoned off the system with no value add whatsoever, and people live lavish lives off the hard earned money of others.

I recently had a buddy who wanted me to invest $5K in a currency trading proposal. I refused, they all made lots of money for a few months. Shortly thereafter they all lost their money and the currency trader was gone.

But that is peanuts compared to the leveraged buyout companies and others in wall street who get their positions from who they know and old money. I recently met one guy who made several million a year who is a partner in a leverage buyout firm. Their children go to boarding schools, they have horses that other people care for, they can't even talk to ordinary people. They are in a whole separate world.

There are lots of these people now. They are part of the class of people that don't care whether jobs are here or in China. The are the new wealthy class that we will all be working to serve. The middle class wealth has gone to them. ....


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candoarms
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2007-08-27          145111


Crunch,

Here in North Dakota, there are bankers who can't wait to lend money to a farmer....any farmer.

Should the farmer go belly up, the bank will get his land. And after the bank takes possession of his land, the bankers enroll that land in the CRP program, which earns the bank nearly 40 dollars per acre per year, for up to 20 years.

The bank doesn't have to do a thing for this money. The bank doesn't have to plant a crop, wait for rain, or hope the hail doesn't come. The bank simply has to hope that Congress will continue to fund the CRP program for another 20 years.

This is how the 1st National Bank of Sioux Falls, South Dakota, has earned more than 28 million dollars from the farm program over the past 10 years.

Now....if I were to approach any farmer, and tell him that this is the reason I want to put an end to the farm program, I'll get my head chewed off, because no farmer wants to give up the 10 bucks he received.

These government programs do not benefit the average American farmer in any way. They take from the poor and give to the rich.......and the rich men are smiling from ear to ear, knowing full well that most Americans have no idea any of this is going on.

The worst part, for me at least, is that even after I point out this giant scam to the American farmer, he's too damned hard headed and defensive to ever hear a word I say.....or write.

As they say, you can lead a horse to water...........

Joel ....


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hardwood
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2007-08-28          145117


Joel, I said I would not respond to any more of your ranting on about the govt. farm programs, but enough is enough. With all of your knowledge seeming unknown to anyone but you then you must have a master plan for saving our country for all the evils you have exposed for the rest of us. What is your master plan? From the farm program right thru the auto, oil, manufacturing, food processing, local school system, etc. You seem to have an answer to everything, are you never wrong? Frank. ....


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2007-08-28          145120


AnnBush, we have the person and possibly the party:

Candoarms. That would make a good party name.

Joel, have you considered running for US Senate or Congress?

Frank, thank you. I am on the bus with you.

Now for the next thread...rip off programs of rhe US Government and lands taken illegally.


I want to leave it very clear from my limited knowledge of farmers in my world which is family farms, they get very little government help if any, the make slim profits and they are so important to the food most of us if not all eat every day. kt ....


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kthompson
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2007-08-28          145122


Joel, you posted the part below earlier and I assume "our farmers" you are talking are the large corp. you list as receiving all the (lets use the term you want to) HAND OUTS. It amazes me those corp. go to any "small town cafe" to eat. Not putting down small towns as my heart beats there. kt Now Frank I am on the bus.


The little cafe, on Main Street, is just as dependent on the farm income as my family is. But, when winter comes to North Dakota, our farmers head south to Yuma, Phoenix, Key West, etc.



....


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hardwood
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2007-08-28          145125


KT; Maybe being Joel claims to be a farmer he can save me a spot on the beach at Key Weat. He'll know it's me when I pull up in my new Lexus I bought with my "Hand Out". Frank. ....


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candoarms
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2007-08-28          145126


Frank,

Thanks for responding. I truly believe that this conversation is badly needed in this nation. Arguments between American citizens accomplish nothing, as this only allows the scam to continue, unabated.

You wrote.........

"Joel, I said I would not respond to any more of your ranting on about the govt. farm programs, but enough is enough. With all of your knowledge seeming unknown to anyone but you then you must have a master plan for saving our country for all the evils you have exposed for the rest of us."

Well.....I do have a solution to all of these problems and the evils, but I can't and don't claim it as being my own. I borrow my ideas from men such as James Madison, Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, George Mason, George Washington, and a few other Virginians.

To make it short and sweet, all I ask is that our governments, at all levels, be forced to stay within the limits of the U.S. Constitution. I vote for people who share my goals.......as well as the goals established by our Founders.

Here's a quote from Thomas Jefferson.........

"With respect to our State and federal governments, I do not think their relations correctly understood by foreigners. They generally suppose the former subordinate to the latter. But this is not the case. They are co-ordinate departments of one simple and integral whole." --Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. ME 16:47

Jefferson was correct, but I would like to add to his comments by saying that even most Americans have no idea what the proper relationship between federal and State governments should be.

I simply ask that you study the comments made by Congressman Ron Paul, of Texas. He's running for the office of the presidency of the United States, and is receiving a whole lot of attention, due to his STRICT interpretation of the U.S. Constitution.

The answer to our problems is simple, and the ideas I champion are older than even the U.S. Constitution.




I will be gone for a few days, as I'm on my way to a firearms auction in Montana. When I get back, I'll respond to the replies made here.

Have a good day, everyone.

Joel ....


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