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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-08-23          41547


Nobody commented to a side comment I made in another discussion about a rule of thumb for operating on side-hills. I can't remember if the rule of thumb is to turn into or down the hill if stability is in doubt.

I think I'm in the situation of of having heard somebody say that turning downhill is safest, but my instinct is that turning into the hill would be more stable. Perhaps there are reasons other than stability for turning downhill.

Anyway, it seems like my head and heart disagrees so I've got a 50% chance of being right and a 50% chance of being wrong. I'm not going to try and think it through, but it'd be nice if somebody would recall what the rule is. It's probably good for everybody to be very clear on this.




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Billy
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2002-08-23          41550


Seems to me turning downhill would be less stable. When turning, the weight is shifted to the outside tires of the turning radius. Turning downhill would shift the weight down hill, turning up hill would shift the weight into the hill. Am I thinking right?

Billy ....


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Billy
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2002-08-23          41551


That last post was if you are going up or down a hill and decide to turn. If you are going along the side of the hill, it would be just opposite. I think

Billy ....


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Murf
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2002-08-23          41553


The way I see it whatever course adjustment you make has to be the safest possible you can acheive as fast possible. Therefore, always turn down-hill, you do not want to increase the instability by compounding the problem by adding gravity/traction issues to the side-slope problem. Besides, this would be the very last situation where you would want your machine to start slipping or sliding and if you are going to be borderline (or completely) out of control you will want it to be rolling forwards, NOT backwards. 'Nose' uphill will always give you the best traction, but it is not the safest from a control point, Best of luck. ....


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DRankin
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2002-08-23          41560


Turning downhill makes sense to me. If the tractor is tippy it going to skid too. The rule in high speed pursuit driving is to always turn into the skid. Saved my bacon and other parts more than once. Tractors aren't cars, but cars can flip under similar circumstances. ....


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kay
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2002-08-23          41561


TURN DOWNHILL!!!!!!! This action will get the front wheels down the hill fastest, and 'catch' the tipping tractor, assuming it is starting to tip. Turning uphill will not help get the mass at the bottom under the mass at the top. Even when feeling a little squeemish about being on the sidehill, turning down will help lower the pucker factor. When on the sidehill, I am always ready to turn down, and I keep a light touch on the uphill brake so I have power to the wheel on the lower side if anything starts to happen. Not much traction on the upper side if the rig is ready to tip over. ....


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Jim on Timberridge
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2002-08-23          41562


I don't need to postulate on physics or theoretical what-ifs of sidehill tranport. I live and play on hillsides all the time; my properties have maybe 10% level ground.
When traversing sideways, the first rule is SLOW. Hitting a rock or root with the uphill tires will afford a terrifying and potentially fatal trip 90 degrees to the intended direction of travel.
Anytime you find yourself approaching the limit of stability, turning downhill becomes very obvious quickly as the right correction. I've reached that point of near-rollover several times, and the experience will immediately show you that heading your machine downhill is the only choice. It shifts the center of gravity back toward the uphill side of the equipment.
jim ....


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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-08-24          41568


Thanks for the comments. They verify what I remember as the rule of thumb--turn downhill.

Murf's comment about nose up hill increases traction is probably the reason why I didn't have the whole idea in mind. True enough that noise up causes a weight transfer back onto the large rear tires to increase traction. But either noise up or down is going to be more stable than the side hill, and what you want is more stability as quickly and safely as possible. Control rather than traction is what is needed. Think I've got it now.

I couldn't find quite the right category for posting this. I used the hobby farmer category with a bit of irony.
....


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kay
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2002-08-24          41580


One could only think about the 'old days' when someone would (usually at the county fair) get a car to tip up on two wheels, and they would drive that car past the crowd. How did they keep it up there? They turned the wheels to keep it balanced. The same reaction applies to sidehill safety. They would keep from tipping more on the side of the car by turning into the direction of tip. If the car was starting to drop back down on all four, they would turn that direction to get it to tip back up.
Hope this helps justify the answer and the need to turn downhill to keep on all fours. ....


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Billy
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2002-08-24          41582


I think everyone has the idea, just trying to explain it their way. The main thing is, don't turn uphill and be careful.

Billy ....


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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-08-25          41603


Yes, that old car trick really did impress me. They'd go over a ramp with two wheels and then just keep one side in the air. I think some drivers could go clear around the track. You could swear that they were going to park and leave them that way.

I can't remember if it was driver's side up or down and I don't know if they had any help with the trick (maybe one side of the car was filled with wheel weights) but sure was impressive. Haven't seen it in a long time. ....


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BrentB
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2002-08-25          41625


this sort of goes along with sidehill stability. I learned that it is possible for my deere 4200 to popout of 4wd unexpectedly. I was mowing nose down a pretty steep bank, and it suddenly went into 2wd. The back tires only couldn't hold it, and I slid about 10 ft into a tree. Glad I had the loader on, and glad the tree was there.

I learned another cheap lesson...Maybe I shouldn't depend on 4wd to keep me out of trouble, but be ready to drop the loader for the worlds best parking brake.

Brent ....


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Murf
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2002-08-26          41648


I wouldn't want to try using the loader as a parking brake if the tractor is still moving. It is amazing how fast a tractor can flip over and planting the bucket will try to stop the machine faster than gravity, momentum & inertia wants it to. Likely result, a tractor on it's side, probably after a few revolutions in the air, and hopefully with the operator anywhere but underneath it. At least rolling fast down the hill offers a chance at deciding the resting position when the ride finishes. I watched a skid steer do this a few years ago on a golf course we were building, it must have rolled end-over-end a dozen times before it came to rest beside a pond, if the tumble had started 50' farther over the machine would have ended up in the drink. Not a good idea. Best of luck. ....


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MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2002-08-26          41663


Update on the old driveing on two wheels at the fair trick:

Ole' Joey Chitwood has left his footprint in all of our lives. (insert nostalgic tear in your eye here)

It takes a special car for this, it has alot of weight on the lower side(usually the left side, the door can the support the weight of the driver, but there are high sided drivers out there who use some type of restraint).

There cars are heavily weighted on the left side, and the left side tires were filled with foam rubber so the sidwalls could support the weight of the vehical.

The suspensions were modified somewhat, but not as much as one might think.

Also, in the steering linkage the shaft between the steering whell and the gearbox had another gearbox mounted in-line to speed up the ratio of the steering wheel so small movment on the steering wheel created fast movement of the front tires.

Also, there was a large weight suspended on a pendulem on the left side of the car, the weight was so heavy, and placed so well, that if I lifted on the right side of the car miself, I could almost get two wheels in the air.

There were some other tricks o the trade, but those were the big ones.

In the car I checked out, there was an inclinometer in the dash in front of the driver, there were lines on the gragh to let the driver know when he was in the "sweet spot".

Even with all that trickery, it was still no easy ride. I tried it myself and it took several attempts to go even a few yards, speed is also critical because you have to make your adjustments with the wheel at a rate that is in proportion to ground speed..steadyness is also a great help.

But it was all over too soon, the show left town and moved on.....and the pretty little redhead who thought I was cute and spent much time with me in the evenings after the show went with it.

I have had an interesting life..to say the least.

Sorry to spoil the trick guys.

And to Valerie....wherever you are....you were cool, and my wife hates that picture of us at the fair that I won't let her throw out.



....


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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-08-27          41676


Nope--reading how it's done doesn't spoil the trick for me at all. Thanks for the description. I sort of suspected that it couldn't be done without modifications. I guess that many people have a redhead somewhere in their lives. Those old-time state fairs seem like a good place for the memories. I'm not sure how the fairs are doing these days. The Canadian Exhibition in Toronto is our equivalent. I'm not sure what happened, but the Ex stopped being interesting many years ago. Hope other fairs are doing better. I guess the lesson is that you can't hold a fair in the middle of a big city.

I guess I'm fortunate 'cause I don't have to work on serious hills. The few times I have been doubtful about traction, I backed down and drove up. I figure that keeping the large rear wheels on the down side should give the best traction. I also know that if the tractor starts sliding, then there's going to be virtually no breaking or steering. In such a situation seeing where you're going probably qualifies as an over-rated experience. Besides, I suspect my bucket may make a better anchor than brake.

I suspect the bucket as brake might work at very slow speeds, if the problem was traction rather than stability. I also suspect that most times the slide would happen quicker than an operator could lower a bucket. If the bucket didn’t hold the tractor, it could make the situation worse instead of better.
....


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kay
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2002-08-28          41721


One 'rule' or response regarding dropping the bucket to the ground when losing rear wheel traction and sliding downhill likely won't always apply. If the traction on the rear wheels is lost, it is quite possible dropping the bucket will decrease weight on the front wheels and add weight, thus traction, to the rear sliding wheels. For sure, if there is a load in the bucket, it would be important to drop the bucket to the ground, hoping that the leading edge of the bucket is curled up and won't dig into the ground. I would also apply both brakes to keep one wheel from rotating forward and the other rotating in reverse. The positraction will work too. Just letting the rear wheels work through the differential, will cause one wheel to rotate counter to the other, thus increasing the chances of turning the tractor away from a straight downhill slide. Been there, done that.

About the car trick on its edge, I suspect the rear end differential was also modified, to get power to only the one rear wheel on the ground. I wasn't surprised that the cars were fixed up to do the trick. Thanks for letting us know how it was done. I remember being surprised they could keep the car on edge as long as they did. My original point was only to relate to the steering reaction to keep the car balanced on the two wheels i.e. turn 'downhill'. ....


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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-08-28          41723


Good point about counter-rotation of the differential. True enough that if the tractor is sliding, then there's already virtually no traction so brakes aren't much good for stopping. Brakes might keep a tractor from turning and side rolling though. I understand that's actually more common than getting a wild ride all the way to the bottom. ....


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william
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 31 South Caralina
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2002-09-23          42826


Tomg, if you sense that you are about to turn over, I guess you better turn down hill because that would be the quickest correct but...................almost always if you are pulling an implement you are better off turning uphill. I farm these Kentucky hillsides and any full time farmer will tell you that you will get into more trouble going downhill than uphill. You can usually pull more load up a hill than you can totally control going downhill. Good luck ....


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TomG
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2002-09-24          42850


Thanks William. That's my sense too, that many times I'd rather keep weight and the rear tires on the downhill side. Maybe that's why I can never seem to remember the rule of thumb. I always end up thinking 'Yes But.' Maybe it's best to conclude that there's really no good rule of thumb that can be used independent of the type of operation and conditions.

It's probably better to hope we develop good instincts and just do the right thing when a need arises. Of course, maybe we need some sort of rules of thumb to survive long enough to develop good instincts. I do appreciate you introducing the complexity that what's best to do may depend on what the tractor's doing.
....


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william
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2002-09-24          42853


Also Tomg, when working on a hillside, you always want to have an escape route if the tractor takes off and you cannot stop it. Sometimes this is impossible but we need to try. ....


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Jim on Timberridge
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2002-09-24          42869


William.
As in most situations, circumstance makes a difference.
I've found that when a tractor on a side hill reaches the point where the center of gravity causes a tractor to start to tip, if the operator turns uphill, he will turn it over.
If he is sliding, and the tractor's uphill wheels haven't lifted off the ground, he may be able to regain traction by powering uphill.
If other CTB readers find it interesting that there's any uncertainty in what action to avoid trouble, then i suggest they take all of the posted thoughts with serious reservation, and live to tell about it -- if they're working on sidehills, and they're carefull they'll find out soon enough how to react and be around to contribute here.
jim ....


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william
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2002-09-24          42872


Jim, I agree with you totally. If you are about to turn over turning downhill is probably your only option. But....if you are about to turn over you really are in a situation we all want to avoid if we can. I am saying turn up hill where you can as a matter of routine. You just get into more trouble when you are going down hill. When I am bushhoging, I try to mow the bad areas going up hill and save the smooth areas for going downhill. ....


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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-09-24          42875


William: There was a tragedy discussed here two summers ago I think where the escape route unfortunately proved to be a pond, so that's a good thing to keep in mind.

Myself, I think it's exactly situations and conditions that are being discussed and so I hope nothing contentious in any comments are intended. I think the situation of 'about to tip' is different from doubtful traction and the possibility of having a heavy implement uphill. I believe that my instincts tell me that there's a good chance that the implement might want to race the tractor to the bottom. However, if I'm ever faced with a situation, I just hope my instincts are right 'cause I know I won't have time to think about it let alone read about it.
....


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MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 190 Star City, Indiana
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2002-09-25          42892


This sidehill tractor subject opens alot of doors.....There is some darned good advice posted within this particular topic.

I've stayed off the subject, because each situation is sooooo different. There is no replacement for good instincts, but unfortunatly, these instincts are not imprinted in our minds like a baby ducks.

Cautiousness is the best answer, but, like the old axiom states, "Familiairity, breeds contempt". I've seem very experienced operators make almost fatal decision, and know of one that was fatal.

Which brings us to the R.O.P.S (Roll Over Protective Structure) and it's importance in our lives.

A ROPS will save your butt!!!!!!!

And.....A ROPS will save your tractor!!!!

And......without a seat belt....it's worthless!!!!

To all you first time buyers, and....all those who have one in the shed:

1) Get on the tractor, and adjust the seat to a comfortable
position.

2) Make sure the ROPS is in it's "UP" Position.

3) Sit in the seat, straight up, like you are driveing.
With your seat belt on.

4) Now, have a friend run a string from the top of the
ROPS to the top front of the tractor hood.

5) Anything that is above this line (Muffler, air breather,
YOUR HEAD!!! is un protected.

6) Next, If YOUR HEAD is above this line, have your friend
measure how much, and then have them measuer how far
your head is forward of the ROPS structure.

7) If there is enough of your head protrudeing above the
structure, and there is not enough room for your head to
roll back WITHOUT HITTING the crossbar..........well....
THIS AIN'T COOL!

I urge everyone...expeirienced or not, to perform this exercise.

There are alot of tractors on the market that are equiped with a ROPS that is pretty much inadequate. The Sub-Compacts are sometimes really scary. ....


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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2002-09-25          42893


MrE, I am on board with you 100 percent but would like to add one thing.
I just got my new BX22 last Friday. It has a 50# wheel weight on each rear and I have had the opportunity to drive it on the same side hills and ground that I have been driving the JD 4100 with liquid filled tires on for the last year and a half.
There is simply no comparison in inherent stability. It’s hard to put numbers on it but I have scared myself several times with the 4100 and when doing the same maneuvers with the BX22 there is not a hint of tipping or instability. So far (6 hours of operation) I am very, very impressed. The real test will be when I get my wife on the new tractor, she disliked driving the 4100 becauuse it always felt to her like it was going to tip on turns. We will see if she is more comfy on the BX.
....


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MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 190 Star City, Indiana
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2002-09-25          42894


Mark,

I suspect the BX22 is a bit shorter, or at least has a lower center of gravity than the 4100. I haven't seen them both side to side yet.

As an old hand at driving everything with wheels, I will agree that to me the 4100 is not as stable as I would like it to be. But I've driven alot worse.

I've never been a big liq. ballast fan. For a whole bunch of reasons, however sometimes we have little choice but to use the slop.

I've driven enough tractors over the years to say that liquid ballast is not as stable as Iron on the wheels.
The liquid takes up too much air space, and the tire can not flex as much as a totally air filled caseing, therefore, making things a little less stable. A little bump on the high side will feel a little bigger with liquid. This may account for some of the feeling of instability, but probably not all of it.

....


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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-09-26          42917


Tough calls I think. Tractors have to have high ground clearance to do field work but higher clearance makes them less stable than many people think they are. I think BX's are less intended for fieldwork than many other compacts and lower ground clearances work well for their main intended uses. Cultivating corn might be a problem though.

A couple of notes: I seem to recall hearing that overturns from trying to make turns at high ground speeds outnumber overturns on slopes. However, over-turns on slopes are frequently the result of changed soil conditions (e.g. an over-night rain) or unexpected increases in draft. These types of things aren't the conditions that instincts developed through routine tractor experience prepares a person for, and I'm not sure how helpful things like tilt-meters would be.

The reason to always use a seatbelt on a ROPS equipped tractor is that if it rolls, most people's instincts have them trying to jump off the low side of the tractor. The ROPS bar tends to catch and pin them as the tractor rolls. Instincts again! There's really no substitute for developing reliable ones. The question is how do new owners develop reliable ones, and maybe there is a role for education. However, The role of education in the form of the safety police is a thankless one and probably not very effective as well. I did appreciate the education that ‘if you aren’t pressed are towing a heavy implement, then turning into a hill might be better.’
....


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Chief
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2003-05-27          55765


Dennis,

This looks like a good candidate for the Safety Section of the forum. Think you can move it over there for maximum exposure? Thanks ....


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