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 | NHnewt
Join Date: Posts: 1 
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2002-03-26 36745
Can anyone offer input as to which fuel system I should go with in a new home? I prefer natural gas (what I have now), but there is no gas at the street where I will be building, so my thoughts were that it would have to be oil until I saw a new home that had a buried propane tank.
Now I am thinking maybe go with the propane, if I can hide the tank. Any suggestions?
Also, Hot air or Hot water?
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| Stan
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 87
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2002-03-26 36746
Can't help w/ the oil vs gas - have had both. If you can hide the propane tank and have a good dealer in the area, propane is cleaner burning, and givs the options of a gas stove if desired (or for future resale).
Don't know about a buried propane tank - I've only seen people hide them w/ landscaping.
As for heat - forced air allows for easier installation of central air - but in a new home you can run the ducts for it, you just end up w/ the extra blower / air filter.
I've seen several of the radiant systems using hot H2O in tubes in the floor. The houses are pretty comfy, and zone control in each area is nice. Especially good if you are going to have any tile work.
just my $0.02 - let us know as you start building...
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| warren
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 54 Iowa
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2002-03-26 36751
I have had both we had base board hot water heat like it but you have to run duck work for central air so cost more than force air heat you can use the duck work for both. Depends on how much cash you want to spend
Warren ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley 
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2002-03-27 36764
If you've seen a buried propane tank, then they're probably code approved in your area. I don't know about my area, but I'd be surprised if simply burying a tank is acceptable. A gas impermeable pit with a gas detector is likely requirements. I'd check regs carefully.
Propane from a leaking tank could travel underground and enter a house. Occasionally you hear about explosions due to methane from abandoned septic systems that traveled underground for considerable distances. Same is true for gas mains, but gas lines just have joints--no valves, tank certification years or refills. I’d just as soon not have any chance of underground gas migrations rather than depend on the putty stuffed around the basement entrance of my underground electrical service—that’s one of the purposes of the putty.
We has a new oil furnace installed three years ago. There have been two warranty repairs so far, and the electronic ignition occasionally fails to start again. My dealer says he's been having reliability problems with virtually all burner control equipment of recent manufacture--there are only three manufacturers of ignition transformer apparently. Anyway, I don't know if the problem is dirty rural AC, or that so many safety checks are built in that the equipment became safe but unreliable or the new stuff should just be sold in a box store.
I do know that it doesn't take too many times for the reset button to be needed before you're running to check the thermostat every time you feel a chill. My experience with oil could be better.
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| JJT
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 93 Upstate NY, USA
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2002-04-06 37116
I've had both fuel oil and propane furnaces as well as warm air anf hot water heat. I prefer the fuel oil and the warm air heat. Fuel oil prices in my area are not as volatile as fuel oil and I think the oil is safer. I like the warm air for 2 major reasons - 1) you can condition/filter the air, I have both an electronic air filter and a humidifier, 2) adding A/C was simply a bolt on. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-04-07 37136
Some people around here have outdoor wood furnaces that feed hot water tanks and radiators. I've heard that these furnaces aren't as efficient as modern wood stoves and are initially pricy. I guess they burn quite a bit of wood, but they can be cost effective in the long run if the price of wood is low. It is around here.
A new electronic ignition transformer on our new oil furnace hasn't entirely fixed its start failure problems. There is a resister that is in a circuit that senses presance of flame. I'm starting to think that if the utility voltage is low or sags when the furnace is starting up, then the problem might be the rural AC rather than the furnace. Low voltage may result in too low a voltage or current for the circuit to test normal.
I wish I could remember if the furnace came on when our utility voltage was 85V while a tree was on the 14KV utility lines. I suppose I'd have to come up with a device to log utility voltage changes for a conclusive diagnosis. If AC is the problem, I'm ware that there are devices that can adjust for short and long term voltage problems. ....
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 | Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-04-07 37138
Propane;
We had a small house in MA with a high effiency propane boiler. It ran small base boards aound the perimeter of the building. We heated the house for ~ 70$ a month on the coldest days. The unit we had also heated the hot water. The unit was smaller than a hot water tank.
I have an outside wood burner with hotwater heat. The unit is fairly efficient and due to its remote location. You can burn almost anything without worry of chimney fires etc. I have it hooked to the barn and pool currently.
I put an inground heat pump in the new house. This allow heating and cooling of 4k ft for 40-50$ a montn. It also heats the hot water. It is about 10 K initially but, in your area my electric hot water bill ran 40-50$.
Down side you need the land to run the lines. I used a Nordic system from your area. ....
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| NHnewt
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-04-08 37169
I guess I am leaning toward the hot air, which is what I have now. From what I have heard, there seams to be a stigma about air, IE hot water is the "Upscale" way to heat. However I like the hot air system I have now because with the humidifier set up properly, and the air filter kept clean, our indoor enviroment is quite cozy and clean. My brother has an air system with an intake hood just above his woodstove. He and his wife hate the system because of the dust, but I believe they have no filter!! And the wood stove is in the cellar, so the intake is always sucking up dust! I cant understand why the installer didnt put in an in line filter. (Must have been more money)
In my house now, we have a vermont Castings woodburning insert that I installed in an existing double sided fireplace opening. We can easily heat the entire house with it (It puts out 40,000 BTU's and burns wood at something like 79% efficiency if the catalyst after burner is kicked off correctly). Sometimes I will run the furnace blower just to circulate the air. It would probably be more effective if my return grill was not in the floor.
The only problem with my current air system is the noise. Does anybody have some tips on how to cut down the noise? Maybe the ducts are too small? Or should there be some sort of isolator between the supply plenum and the furnace?
Also, has anybody else rigged up duct work to suck in the hot air from near a woodstove to circulate around the house? ....
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-04-08 37174
Newt, if you go with the hot water baseboard heat your interior decorating options become somewhat constrained. You cannot,for example, push a couch or a bookcase against the wall where the radiators are located.This is something to consider if the room size is average to small. If you are designing really large rooms then you can group the furniture in the center of the room and leave the walls free. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-04-08 37181
Small ducting and high rpm blowers do make more noise than old style larger ducting. That's a downside to high efficiency furnaces I've heard. We ended up with a medium efficiency furnace with a passive air-intake heat exchanger because they're supposed to be quieter.
Even the medium efficiency is better than the 30-year-old oil burner it replaced. Frost forms in the chimney above the roof during very cold weather. The oil guy says that reducing the blower speed slightly should fix the problem.
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| Steve in Buffalo NY
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-04-08 37185
TomG - Sounds like you need a smart "conditioning" UPS on your furnace not just your PC. We use regular computer UPSs on our radios systems at work and as long as you buy appropriate capacity, it will supplement line voltage during brownouts and provide power until your autostart generator kicks in. ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-04-08 37191
Newt;
A flexible isolator between the furnace and the main plenum would reduce the noise tranfered through the duct work.
The main trunks on my system are insulated on the inside of the steel ducts. This also reduces the noise. The only noise I get is the rushing air when it comes on.
The main noise I get now is the water cirulating pump for the main lines. I have had other pump that are barely audible but the pump this system arrived with is too loud. On the furnace area is enclosed it should be less of a problem but I wonder if I should contact the manufacture or furnace supplier. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-04-09 37204
Steve: Thanks for the comment. That’s the sort of thing I was thinking of. I don't know how the UPS system works, but I think in terms of resonant core transformers to dampen short-term voltage changes and automatic adjust auto-transformers for long term changes. The UPS thing may be a simpler and less expensive approach. My oil company owner would love it if I came up with a solution. He's about going nuts responding to trouble calls on new oil furnaces and can't find anything wrong.
Too bad my backup generator isn't auto start. I really don't think that running electric motors on 85V (which happens around here) does them any good. A very good auto-transformer would fix the problem even though one probably would pop a circuit breaker if it actually had to adjust voltage that much.
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| Steve in Buffalo NY
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2002-04-09 37222
I'm not sure exactly how the conditioning units work. Could be that the inverter runs all the time and only draws from the battery when needed. I see to remember that +/- 10% voltage was acceptable for ac motors. So 85 is a touch low! And the starting amperage may be a bit high unless the ups is rated for it. I'm told that they have a serial port for data logging software so you could monitor the power over time. ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-04-09 37225
Well you had me confused for a moment there, I had to read back aways to pick up the thread.
The UPS units use the valve regulated lead acid batteries, which we have discussed before in terms of tractor starter batteries. There would be no problem with the start load on the battery obviously a DC truck or tractor start motor is going to draw more amp than an AC fan motor. I am however uncertain as to the switching circiut on the UPS. Certainly if the unit will run the fan or furnace continously for a time it should be able to accept the start amps from the motor.
I believe the units for this application are different than one for the computer. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-04-10 37239
If it's a battery/inverter approach, the starting current probably is limited by the inverter circuit components rather than the battery. The unit also would have to isolate itself from the utility AC, or the higher voltage would back feed the utility.
I maintained an old omni-range while in the Air force. The equipment was fed through an auto-transformer, because utility voltage isn't reliable enough. A sensing circuit adjusted the auto-transformer tap up or down to achieve a desired output voltage. I'm not sure what the total AC load for the site was, but the transformer itself wasn't very large.
The advantage of auto-transformers is that they have high current capacity. Their disadvantages are that they can't compensate for short term voltage changes, and that increasing the output voltage increases the input current draw.
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