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Is My Retaining Wall Level

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ScooterMagee
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 201 Nebraska
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2003-09-16          64040


I’ve started my retaining wall project and have two separate walls to build (1) about 40’ long and (1) about 80’ long. I’ve pulled strings, used hanging line levels, and a 4’ beam level, but am still not comfortable that I have the base row level. So, my question, without renting (or buying) a rotary laser level, does anyone know any “trick” (= inexpensive) way to check level over such a long length. There must have been a method to do this before rotary laser levels. And, in the scheme of things how close is close enough over an 80' length?



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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2003-09-16          64042


A water level will work and is very accurate. Connect clear tubing to a garden hose and let the water rise to its own level along the length of the project.

Water levels hold a fixed volume and need to be recalibrated when you move them, so I don't like to use them for checking intermediate points. I use a cheap laser level and set it up over the long interval with a water level. A cheap laser level may be good enough on its own, but in combination with a water level, you can level to better than 1/4" over your 80 ft distance. ....


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BrentB
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 21 Illinois
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2003-09-16          64060


Here is a trick to using a water level. Buy 3/8" clear tubing and tape one end into a milk jug. Fill the milk jug full and then lower the tube until about 1/2 the jug is empty. This way you'll have enough water volume to fill the tube, and you can hold the free end of the tube as high as you want without worrying about losing water. Also, I believe it makes the water level more accurate.

Brent ....


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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-09-16          64075


I used 1/4" tubing and wished I had used 3/8th. Air comes out of most water inside the tube and bubbles can form air locks that really throw off the level. I still use my 1/4" level but it takes the bubbles a long time to rise through 30' of 1/" tube (half my level length). Air rises a lot faster in 3/8th tubing.

The reservoir idea on the fixed end is good. A large enough reservoir in relation to the volume of water in the tube and for most purposes you don't have to re-calibrate the level when you move one end. 3/8" tubing holds more water than 1/4"and takes a larger reservoir to achieve the same accuracy.

Lazers are dandy but a water level can check the level between points that don't have a sight line. You just have to be sure you don't get an air lock at the top of anything the tubing goes over, and it can't go over anything higher than the tubing ends.

For checking grades I tie the ends onto some lighting stands I have and then measure down to grade along a plumb line. It works better if there's a bit of a head of water at each end of the tubing. I can just raise the stand at the low end to get about 10' of head if I need to.
....


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AC5ZO
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2003-09-17          64114


I have used the reservoir idea before and it does help. It also cuts down on the fluid oscillating back and forth whenever you move one end of the water level, also.

If I have a straight sight line, I still like the laser, because I can turn it on and use a wood block with a mark on it to check the level height all along the line. But, I have also found the water level to be better than the bubble levels that are in some of the cheap laser units. For me, putting a block of wood on the fence and looking for the laser spot is the easiest way to go. But Tom makes a good point about the water level working around corners and obstacles.

....


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ScooterMagee
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-09-17          64127


Okay, I gave it a try last nite. Used a 50ft garden hose, a couple of hose fittings and a couple of pieces of 3/4" clear tubing. The 40ft wall was perfect (plus-or-minus 1/16"). However, the 80ft wall was off about 1-1/16" over 50'. Darn, I thought I was closer than that. Oh well, since I only have the first row of blocks set, I think I'll pull 'em back up, and adjust. Thanks for the advice, all. This worked out well. ....


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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2003-09-17          64134


Is there a Costco near you? They have a laser level for $13.00

Actually,you get two. One for your pocket and one that adapts to a camera tripod. ....


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ScooterMagee
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2003-09-17          64142


No Costcos in Omaha.

My concern with the "torpedo" type laser levels is not with the laser, but with their leveling bubbles. Even if you are only off a 1/64" over 9", you will be 1-5/8" off over 80'. That's why I really liked the water level idea. ....


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AC5ZO
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2003-09-17          64144


The bubble levels in some of the cheap laser levels may very well not be very accurate, but they shoot a straight line of laser light none the less. In my previous posts, I suggested using the water level for the best accuracy and the laser level for best convenience. Bear in mind that some of these laser levels have a screw for adjusting the beam to the bubble level and you can use the water level to calibrate it. ....


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ScooterMagee
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2003-09-17          64147


I would agree, once you have established your two points with the water level, just align the laser to pass thru both points and you have a straight & level line. For what I’m doing, I marked the water level heights on two stakes, 50ft apart, and pulled a string between them. From there, I will measure down a constant height. ....


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AC5ZO
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2003-09-17          64148


That will work fine.

I am glad the water level worked for you. ....


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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2003-09-17          64153


I understand that a torpedo laser level is about as accurate as a level on a string.
I have a self leveling laser that shoots a fan in the horizontal or vertical. It is said to be accurate to 1/4 inch over 100 feet. I fortunately it is not bright enough to see in sun light. I need to wait until dusk.
I guess I am concerned about initial level and staying level as you build. The level I have is good for setting up and tracking as you build. I know I could not use a water level for things like tougue and groove pine ceilings.
There is a little pocket self leveling laser that shoots in 3 directions. ....


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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-09-17          64157


I see that many laser levels are sold these days with special glasses that supposedly let you see the laser better in daylight. The glasses look like sunglasses to me. Can you see the laser better when wearing sunglasses? Just curious, I don't have one but was thinking of purchasing one for a retaining wall project. ....


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AC5ZO
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2003-09-17          64161


You might be able to see the laser better if other wavelengths of light other than the ~680 nm line from the laser were filtered out somewhat. I have never tried these glasses but I expect that they should have a red color to work properly.

Laser brightness has not been a problem with my laser level. I think that it is more of a problem with the line generating lasers where the laser is scanned with a motorized mirror.

....


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DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998
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2003-09-17          64182


Hmmmm.. That's interesting that the bubble levels are inaccurate. I was going to buy one recently at Home Depot.

I did notice that they had a laser level that could be attached to a standard bubble level, I did not realize the merit of this at the time but I do now. I guess if I attached it to a 4 foot level it would dramatically improve the accuracy.

I bet though that this laser was also too weak to use in the daylight, making it not so valuable as a string for concrete paver or other daylight projects.

Dennis
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zedosix
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 23 Ontario, Canada
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2003-09-17          64183


I'm going to throw a curve ball at this whole thing. Why are you so concerned about a retaining wall having just a 1" drop over 50'. Surely you will not notice this with the eye, and surely it won't affect any structural integrity of the wall. I do retaining walls and brick work for a living and let me tell you getting something like an 80' retaining wall to within 1" is not to darn bad. Anyway, I suppose if it rises and falls 1" every 10' then thats a different story.

Just my thoughts, not to be taken to seriously ok. ....


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DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998
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2003-09-17          64190


Yup!

Once you set the corners nothing like good masonry line. ....


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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-09-17          64193


I have two lazers one that is like a minnie, aluminum 12" level magnetic bottom with a 100' beam to 1/4" which is great in the house for work.I also have a smaller clamp on a level lazer unit that is good for 1500' by 1/4in drop. That one has all kinds of do not look at, wear protective glasses, caution warnings but it is quite good outside but something to aim at helps. ....


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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma
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2003-09-17          64199


I was wondering the same thing zedosix
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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-09-17          64202


I've got some pretty fussy craftsmen freinds that can be quite critical. I don't think they would find it. good point guys. have to agree,normally it's only the builder that notices the bulk of his errors. Besides that, I don't think I'd want to tear it apart to correct that. ....


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ScooterMagee
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Posts: 201 Nebraska
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2003-09-18          64224


Actually that was part of the original question, "how close is close enough over an 80' length?" All-in-all, It took about an hour to adjust the first row, which is now dead-on. I could have lived with 1/2in, but an inch seemed like too much at the time. I guess I have to realize that I’m not building the Great Pyramid of Egypt (although it seems like it sometimes, when you’re lugging 115-lb blocks around). Now, only 13 more rows to go. ....


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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-09-18          64234


The question 'Why?' is a good one. I understand that there's a satisfaction in doing it because you can. I also understand that it's a luxury us amateurs can indulge in.

I suspect that if GPS systems get much better we can throw away all of our levels--at least for most practical purposes. ....


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AC5ZO
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2003-09-18          64240


I build automated machinery for a living, not masonary walls. The question about how good is good enough always comes up when you are doing home repairs. Personally, I like to get things as close as possible, but I pay a price as it takes longer to do things with high accuracy.

The absolute best level that I own for leveling machine tools will read 0.0005" out of level over a 12" span. That is as good as a bubble level can get as far as I know. So even that grade of level is only going to be able to measure level to about 0.040 over 80 ft. You can do about as well with the water level that I discussed in my first post.

For times that I really want a level line and where I want to use a laser for quick checks, I put my precision level on a steel plate and level it out and then put the calibrated laser level on that plate and ignore the bubble level in the laser level. I use an offset block that is the height of the laser beam above the surface that I am leveling. For simple jobs I put a pencil mark on a piece of 2X4 and make sure the pencil mark bisects the laser beam when placed on the surface. If I want something more accurate, I drill a hole in a piece of metal and this allows me to more precisely level a surface even though the laser beam gets larger at a distance.

I have known guys that have torn out masonary walls because they were not level. These were new walls that they did not do the prep work to start with a level base. In this case, a problem that might have bothered you was caught with the first row of blocks. It should be smooth sailing from here on. Good Luck. ....


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