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Plumbing Nightmare in New Barn

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cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 1307 The South Shore of Lake Ontario, New York
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2001-08-19          31088


The floor was poured in my barn last Tuesday. I spent several days prior to that in 100 degree heat making sure the plumbing, drains and water supply were installed perfectly (by doing it myself). Yesterday while inspecting the inside of the building I noticed that one of my 2" standpipes attached to a 4" main sewar line was tilted considerably. I thought it was struck by the skid steer used to level the floor before the pour, not a big deal, until I checked outside. The young man running the skid steer had needed a bit more material and took it upon himself to grab some gravel from the corner of my building (an area rich with 4-5 feet of fill. He severed the marking stake for my water line and kinked the plastic, then proceded to raise his bucket enough to catch the end of the 4" sewar discharge and raised it several inches in doing so. I am surprised it did not break under the floor. Now the line must be lowered. I dumped two buckets of water into it and nothing runs out, the low spot can be seen by looking into the discharge end. My question is this. I would have to tunnel under the pipe and floor aproximately four feet to fix this problem. Once I clear under the pipe, it would have to be lowered by hammering the 2" riser down through the floor a couple of inches. The fiberglas re-enforced cement is 4-5" thick in that corner. Could this be accomplished without breaking the cement? Would the pipe be loose enough to travel downwards by using a wooden block and mallet, or will I need to drill the concrete around it? On the other hand, if I leave it alone, I can get the outlet down by forcing the pipe. Will it run sufficientlly with perhaps 2" of standing water in a low spot before it hits a decline angle? Are there any other options? I am not sure yet what the builder will offer, I left him a message to call me, but I am a bit skeptical. Needless to say, I am sick over this having to be done.



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Craig Dashner
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2001-08-20          31101


If it was your fault, I would suggest trying what you are suggesting, but since it was a company who did this, I would push for a correct fix. If I get the gist of what you are saying, the pipe was lifted outside the building, causing it to be lifted inside as well? If water pools in the droop, any debris, oil or grease will pool there as well and will likely cause a problematic drain (In my opinion). I think your best bet would be to have the concrete guy come in and saw cut the floor and remove a section to access the pipe and be able to replace it (make them put a new pipe in) to the correct grade. Make the cut to access the pipe as simple as possible (ie. cutting out a corner of the slab or a trench, stick to a 3 sided cut no zig zags). Make sure the material around the pipe gets compacted well, every 9"-12". Then pour concrete to patch. Good luck! ....


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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-08-20          31103


It does sound like a nightmare. Too bad. It also sounds like the builder's problem, That’s what bonding and insurance is for. I guess something like that would really mess up the builder's weekend and reluctance to make a return phone call would be understandable. Maybe a call will come today. I don't have building expertise and if it were me I'd get a second opinion about acceptable remedies. The situation sounds a little tricky, and maybe neither the builder nor you is in a position of identifying a 'good as original' remedy. Questions like ‘How do I know the drain isn’t really broken or might break ‘or’ how do I know the slab won’t crack after a year of frost heave’ would plague my mind. Other problems might be that a homeowner may accept a drain with a low spot but a building inspector might not. It's tough call, but I'd want to be sure that a proposed remedy is adequate and avoid getting sucked into some naive patch-up scheme. It is the builder's problem and a nightmare, but that's the price of doing business. Cooperation is good, but it's not a customer's role to make a vender feel good. For sources of second opinions, we once got an opinion at not too great a cost--good thing too. We contacted an engineering firm for an inspection of abandoned commercial buildings on a property. The PEng said we actually didn't need his expertise (or hourly rate). The company used a guy with good knowledge but no PEng for a lot of their fieldwork. The PEng said this guy's opinions seldom differed from his anyway. The price was right, and the only drawback was that the engineering company said they wouldn't warrant the evaluation. The report wasn't on company letterhead and the company wouldn't accept liability for the recommendations. Sounded fair enough to me. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2001-08-20          31106


Cutter, Tom's comments are bang on. Do NOT let them attempt some 'easy fix', this situation is a MAJOR problem. The drain will let fluids out with some standing 'water' remaining, however, I would be very surprised if that lasted very long since the shallow rise section will undoubtedly act as a sediment trap, clogging the drain in short order. As Craig mentioned the only way to fix this problem is to open a section of the floor and REPLACE the pipe. Do NOT let them tunnel beneath the slab, it will be impossible to compact the soil properly afterwards and will cause settling of the slab, probably after the 'warranty' on their work expires, you do not want to inherit someone elses problem a couple of years down the road. In fact if it was me (who is a P. Eng.) I would insist that the repairs be done to the satisfaction of an Engineer, and then be certifed, this will guarantee (literally) that it is done right. Best of luck. ....


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steve arnold
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2001-08-20          31107


Hi Cutter, I saw your your post last week and was going to ask how your shop was coming, with baby coming time and $$ have been short, so the inside of mine is on hold. I would also advise you to attack this problem from above (cut concrete), this way you are disturbing less soil under your pipe and concrete.
consider drilling and installing rerod into old concrete that will reinforce new patch. As far as the contractor if he doesn't make amends and you cant hold back money, complain to BBB. ....


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cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 1307 The South Shore of Lake Ontario, New York
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2001-08-20          31121


Thanks guys. You confirm what I was afraid of. I have held back half the money at this point, and will feel like a jerk having to use it as leverage. The company is more or less a group of Mennonite that do very sturdy, yet not cabinet maker quality barn building. They are decent, honest people and we did this deal on a handshake. The price they gave me is half that of a Morton of the same size AND included the floor. I believe the young man running the skid steer might be the owner's son, he may have been afraid to say something to us. The floor cutting idea makes me very upset, it isn't a week old yet. The area involved is three to four feet from the end of the building in a corner. I have not filled there any more than neccessary to build the structure, so that water and drain hookup would be easier. It is gravel that was compacted well and allowed to sit in the rain and settle for three months before hand. My thought was to try to clean enough gravel from under the pipe using a post hole digger to allow it to drop by relieving the hold of the 2" riser through the cement, then compacting it back in with a sledge hammer head using sand as fill. It is apparent from your posts that is not an acceptable method and could cause problems down the road. I am going to have to see what he offers as a solution to this problem. Thank you all again for the advise. ....


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Sparky
Join Date: Jun 2004
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2001-08-20          31124


What would happen if you dug it out and fixed it, then pumped a slurry in under the slab. Aren't there companies that do concrete leveling etc. That way you don't have to compact it. ....


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cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 1307 The South Shore of Lake Ontario, New York
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2001-08-21          31160


That certainly is a thought, we have used flowable fill to correct underminings on our cross country transmission lines. I am still waiting to hear from the builder, he has yet to finish the partitions and ceiling, let alone repair my sewar drain. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2001-08-22          31178


Cutter, while Sparky's suggestion is correct, this problem COULD be fixed using slurry pumped in, the problem is guaranteeing the fix. I suspect that while your contractor is no doubt competant as a builder (accident aside) I doubt they have ever even seen this process, much less be experienced at it. Underpinning of this type is a tricky process for someone skilled at it, for a novice to get it right the first time, well lets just say you'd be better off buying lottery tickets in hopes of having enough money to rip up and redo the slab. The problem with this method in your case is two-fold, first, filling a horizontal hole is VERY tricky and voids left behind will be a problem later on, and secondly, if it is not done right you will not know till much later. These two reasons are why I suggested that NO repair be done UNLESS it is recomended and certified (in writing of course) by a Licenced Engineer, that way any problem later on will be covered by their liability insurance. I doubt that you could disagree with this building of yours being too big an investment on your part to gamble with. Even if the builder is not willing to pay for the cost of an Engineer, do it out of your own pocket, it shouldn't cost more than a couple hundred dollars and it may be the best money you will spend on that building. Best of luck. ....


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Rob Munach
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2001-08-22          31182


Murf,
Don't count on an Engineer's liability insurance to cover anything. Unless he is standing there the entire time the repair is made (which is expensive), any future failure would likely be a case of finger pointing at best. By the time it is sorted out, you would spend more on the lawyers than on repairing it. I own a private strucutral engineering practice and can tell you from experience, getting an engineer to cough up any dough is tough. I still recommend getting an engineer to give his opinion, but don't count on him being an insurance policy - just maybe some peace of mind knowing you are on the right track.

-Rob ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2001-08-22          31183


Rob, interesting how different liability issues are between countries, here in Canada, "coughing up dough" is not optional, all someone has to do is contact the Association of Professional Engineers and they will tell you put you in touch with an adjuster for the insurance carrier. If a claim is deemed to be covered (and almost all are) they will fix the problem with their contractor and then go after the Engineer for the $5,000 deductable on the liability policy. Also, an Engineers certification is binding regardless if he was NEVER even on-site. This is why I don't practice. On the other hand medical malpractice is almost impossible to do anything about in Canada unless it is a major problem. ....


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cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 1307 The South Shore of Lake Ontario, New York
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2001-08-22          31202


I appreciate all of the knowledge being thrown at my problem. I am still waiting to hear from the builder to see what he offers. I am sure something will happen, I haven't paid him the balance as of yet. I am getting over the initial dissapointment and trying to focus on the good work that is apparent in my project. ....


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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2001-08-23          31238


Cutter;
The answer is yes. Yes you can hammer the pipe down through the cement and yes you can dig up under the floor under the pipe. The job is not the tough if you know what to do.
To dig out under the pipe place a waterhose on the end of a 4' piece of 1/2-3/4" PVC pipe and use the water pressure to clear the dirt out from under the pipe. You can also use a pressure washer. Filling the area above the pipe may be a problem but if you disturb only the earth necessary you should not weaken the floor much.
You should be able to hammer the pipe down with a mallet. I recently build 2 ICF structures and had to move the through pipes some 2 inch. I found I could hammer the pipe though the 6 1/2 inch concrete to adjust the amount extending throught the walls.
Do you need an engineer? No you need a plumber. Unfortunately I am also an engineer, but with advanced degrees.
Incidently I plumbed the water lines my barn with the crosslinked polyethylene. In this part of the country it was like taking your like in your hands as PVC is king. I plumbed around the exterior walls of the 40 x 60 ' barn to put in exterior taps and put in a bathroom. I turned the thing on and looked for leaks. I did not have one. The system was frozen a couple of times last winter but did not crack any fittings. We do not get to hard of a freeze here though. I understand it will with stand a hard freeze though.
Peters ....


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cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 1307 The South Shore of Lake Ontario, New York
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2001-08-23          31243


Thank you for the idea Peters. I am waiting for my builder to call me back tonight. I will see then what he offers. I understand all of the concerns that have been expressed regarding undermining of the slab, and no matter what method is used, I will make sure I am present and try to get my plumber (that is usually me, but not in this case) to assist that day as well. Is the polyethylene that you used the same material swimming pool installers are using, a white reinforced, ribbed , flexable plastic? I am going to plumb everything overhead with drain cocks and drips so the system can be winterized easily, so I will use pvc or Cu. ....


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steve arnold
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2001-08-24          31254


cutter, I am sure you already thought about this, but be thankful you did not put radient heating tubes in that slab and if you had the tubes be thankful the problem is 3-4 feet from the edge! ....


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Jason f
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2002-01-27          34993


Don't let them off the hook. I understand that you don't want to be a pain in the neck, but you paid money for this project, and it sounds like you were very careful in the layout and setup of the floor. This was their problem, and they MUST have seen what they did when it happened. Get the owner/lead guy out there to look at what was done and insist that the concrete floor be cut out in that area and a new floor poured in after the pipe is fixed. You did not ask them to do the job halfway.... and hold back that money until it is done right. ....


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cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000
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2002-01-27          34998


Jason, the project is long since paid for. We dug under the slab and chipped the concrete away around the stand pipe that was affected the most then hammered the whole thing down to the point it now drains from one end to the other. Not as neat a job as you suggested, but the most I figured I would get out of them. I don't like lawyers and so unfortunately, I pick the lesser of two evils at times. The undermine is not extensive and I am going to pack it with a sand/cement mix this spring once everything is settled. ....


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Jason F
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2002-01-27          35020


Don't mean to come on too strong there, it just kills me when you spend you hard earned money and pay someone else to do something for you and they make more of a hassle than if you did it yourself. I'm glad to hear it all worked out in the end. Any chance of some picture of the project. Where did you get the plans and are you going to build with green lumber or kiln dried stuff ? ....


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DonR
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2002-01-28          35039


Jason,

The building is up. Pictures are on the Photos page. ....


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