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When are Tires unsafe

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DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998
Posts: 2707 NorthWest NJ
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2003-09-15          63934


The story below is making wonder if the BF Goodrich Trail tires I got as OEM with my 2000 Tundra, with only 26000 miles on them, should be replaced. The center of the tread is good but the edges have lost almost all of the outside cleats that were on them when new. I also notice if I go up steep switch backs that are wet, or the least bit sandy I lose traction even when going slow in two wheel drive. Doing a 360 in a Tundra with the family is not an image I welcome, or am I over reacting to the story below:

_______________________________________________________
My father in law got into an accident on the interstate recently in the rain on the way to my house. He hydroplaned and lost conrtol of the car at 65 mph the car did a 360 and went up an embankment hit some object with the right front fender. Blew a rear tire when he hit a curb. Spun some more and wound up in the middle lane of three facing the wrong way sideways, with cars coming at him at 70 -80 mph in the rain. He managed to start the car and get to the side of the road where he changed the flat tire.

He got to my house and when I looked at the tires on his car you could see that they had 30k miles on them and that while the tread was not bad in the middle the edges of the tires were worn somewhat.
__________________________________________________________

Dennis
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BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000
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2003-09-15          63935


Dennis,

It sounds like the tires in both cases are or have been underinflated. If both edges (not just one edge which may be caused by fast cornering or improper alignment) wear before the center, this can indicate underinflation.

Anyway, I would think you should get new tires. I bet if you drove the tires you have now back-to-back with how they were when new, you would say they were dangerous. But because you drive it every day, the effect of the worn tires sneaks up on you.

I usually wait too long for new ones. When I get them, I can't believe how much they help handling and traction. Have learned the same lesson over and over.

Bill ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2003-09-15          63936


When a tire has reasonably good tread in the center but is almost bald on both shoulders it is almost certainly a sign of under-inflation for the load it is carrying.

A lot of misconception surrounds tire pressures.

The best rule of thumb is to run the size & type of tires, at the pressures recommended, that are listed in the owner's manual & also shown on the sticker in the driver's door jamb.

If your tires are worn in that manner it is best to replace them, that is not to say they are defective in any way, they are just worn, and most likely from incorrect tire pressures.

Best of luck. ....


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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-09-15          63937


I agree with the diagnosis of underinflation.

Safety depends on how and where you drive to some regard, but since you do not have absolute control over your driving environment and conditions, it is generally best to keep your tires and vehicle in top shape. It would certainly seem foolish to have a wreck to save a couple hundred bucks on tires.

With respect to inflation, I would recommend that you monitor the tread wear and adjust the inflation to the amount that gives you a more even wear. It is normal for front tires to wear on the edges a little more due to steering forces. (That is why you rotate them) But, it sounds like you have significant edge wear and higher air pressure will carry more of the load in the center of the tires.

Some of the recent press about tires deals with tread separation, which is a different safety problem. ....


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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2003-09-15          63938


Assuming even wear the tires must be replaced when 2/32" of tread remains. That is when the tread-wear bars start to appear horizontally across the tread.

Here in rainy western Oregon I replace our tires when they wear to 4/32". Hydroplaning is nasty business and your tread has to have sufficient depth to allow water to drain away. In a dryer climate I may go to 3/32", but I think 2/32" is unsafe in any climate. If the edges are worn enough to prevent water from draining out the sides of your tires hydroplaning risk increases a lot.

The classic explanation for tires wearing on the edges is underinflation. That sure can cause it, but there are other reasons. It could it caused by poor wheel alignment, weak shocks, mechanical problems in the front end, and even suspension design or tire construction. If the wear is sort of scalloped or cupped (not smoothly worn around the circumference of the tire) I would lean toward out-of-balance, weak shocks, or front-end problems.

If both inner and outer edges are worn smoothly around the circumference it would probably be underinflation. If the inner and outer edges are wearing differently it would generally be caused by alignment problems or suspension design. The old Ford I-Beam comes to mind - those suspensions would chew up tires like nobodys business. Vehicles with short control arms tend to wear edges faster than those with longer control arms.

And sometimes some brands just wear faster than others, and sometimes they do it in odd ways. New tires generally have anywhere from 9 to 13/32" of tread on them. Obviously the thicker the tread when new the longer they will last. Thick tread has a downside in that those tires tend to be a bit noisier and sing more at highway speeds. For this reason (and cost of course) manufacturers often put tires with lesser tread depth on new vehicles.

A tread depth gauge is a cheap item to have, and it's good to go out and measure your tread every couple of months to see if the tread is wearing evenly. You can catch problems early this way and save some bucks. ....


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DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998
Posts: 2707 NorthWest NJ
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2003-09-15          63941


Yup the tires are worn on both edges so it is underinflation, plus just plain old wear.

I usually set the pressure to be 2 pounds higher than the vehicle recommendation, but the recommended pressure is only 26 front and 29 year which seems low to me.

I took some pix of the tires in my frames 7 and 8 , 8 is my original spare, hmmmm what do you think, pretty shot?

They look worse now with the comparison.

Of course the treads on pix 6 look much better that 7 or 8 ;>)

I rotate the tires, and the wheel alignment is OK so I think is just the combination of.

1)Bf Goodrich are not long wearing tires
2)Toyota set the inflationpressure low to give a smooth ride
3)Off road tires wear faster
4) 4wd causes more corner wear

I will probably replace these with michelins, I had them on a Jeep Grand Cherokee and they still looked good with 64000 while the original goodyear wranglers were wasted at 30k


Dennis ....


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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2003-09-15          63942


It's easy for me to spend your money, but yes I would recommend replacement. People may throw stones at me for saying this, but I generally ignore the manufacturer tire pressure recommendations. If I am unsure about which pressure is best for any particular application I start with the maximum sidewall pressure. If the ride causes the fillings to fall out or your teeth you can back it off some, but keep it high. As you drive use a treadwear gauge every month or two to make sure they're wearing evenly. If they wear too much in the middle you can back off the pressure a few lbs, or if they wear too much on the edges you should bump it up even more.

As you indicated, manufacturers often specify a low tire pressure to give a smooth ride but that doesn't maximize tread life. I believe one factor in the Ford/Firestone Explorer tire fiasco was that Ford had specified too low a pressure. Low pressures increase heat build-up which leads to tread separation.

BTW, Michelin makes a fine tire but I discovered from my years in the tire shop that they seem to use less rubber per tire than nearly any other manufacturer. The inner liner of their tires is VERY thin - you need to be very careful when patching a michelin from the inside. This sounds bad, but less mass means cooler running and excess heat really shortens the life of a tire. For my money, though, on any vehicle which is going to see a hard off-road life or spend a lot of time on gravel roads I'd rather have MASS.
....


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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-09-15          63946


I have owned many sets of Bridgestone Desert Duelers. They make a variety of treads, and I personally use the AT tread which is the most open and agressive. I had one set on a truck that had gone over the Baja 1000 course several times. I was very pleased with their life and performance.

I run the Bridgestones at near maximum pressure as stated on the sidewall, as Ken suggests. I lower the pressure only when I am going offroad and want more floatation and to keep the punctures down. I have only had two or three punctures in several years of running these tires. I would say that I get >60K miles out of a set of these and they don't stay on the pavement.

I am sure that others can relate stories about other brands. I was bothered when Ford was having trouble with Bridgestone/Firestone, but I tend to believe that the fault was with Ford and underinflation.

My wife had a set of Toyo tires on her truck and they lasted even longer than the Bridgestones. I have never used Michelins on a SUV. I replaced OEM Goodyears and BF Goodrich tires with Bridgestones, but it may be that replacement tires are higher quality than those sold as OEM. (Even within the same brand.) My Hummer has some huge BF Goodrich TA tires that seem to be doing well. ....


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DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998
Posts: 2707 NorthWest NJ
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2003-09-15          63965


Ken,

It is interesting how pieces of knowledge can come together, I have never worked at a tire dealership so I did not know that Michelins were thinner and cooler running.

Now let's add this to the mix. From 1995 to 1999 I worked for the Engineered Materials Division of Alled Signal (now Honeywell).

In 1996 I went on a business trip to Europe for Allied Signal. We visited a polymers plant that Allied had completed 2 years before my visit. The plant cost a fortune, it was huge. The purpose of the plant was to supply tire cord solely to Michelin Tire. Because of this the plant was built in an obscure area of France close to one of Michelin largest plants.

Our Allied tour guide pointed out that while the objective was to supply tire cord to Michelin, the plant while brand new and state of the art for Allied, was never able to manufacture tire cord that was #1 grade, this was an enormous failure for Allied and millions and millions were lost because of it.

The polymer cord grading had to do with cord strength / consistency if I recall correctly. Michelin only purchased first quality cord and therfore never bought any cord from Allied. Therefore they wound up having to ship it longer distances than hoped for to other tire manufacturers who had lower standards at the time.

So maybe the thinner carcas on the Michelin has something to do with higher spec that they follow.

Dennis
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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2003-09-15          63973


Dennis,

that's quite interesting. I know Michelin makes a top-notch tire for the road but I'm not sure how good they are for off road or gravel road situations. We didn't see a lot of those applications at our shop. The guys who bought the big and beefy off-road tires never seemed to actually go off road.

It's really a matter of picking the right tire for the job, and avoiding marketing hype. For example, I really like to see a cross section of the tire I am purchasing. Why? Well in the 80's Goodyear sold a Polysteel steel belted radial. They sold quite well but seemed to have a lot of road hazard failures. One slow day we cut one open and found that the steel belt was about 2" wide covering the very center of the tread. The tire footprint was about 9-10" and only 20% of it was protected by the steel belt!

More plies is better for impact resistance and load carrying, but 8/10/12-ply tires will wear out faster at highway speeds than a 4 ply or 4 ply rated tire due to the extra heat. Nylon cord is the strongest and stretches the least but for passenger cars it is rough riding when cold (they take on a flat spot when sitting overnight and it doesn't go away until they warm up) so polyester is popular among passenger car tires.

We have to drive up a 5 mile rough gravel logging road to get to our house. When I tire shop I look for strength, traction, and impact resistance (nylon and steel belts rule!) and let the tire-wear chips fall where they may. I really hate changing tires on a narrow gravel road with logging trucks barreling by at breakneck speeds.

If I were still in the business it would be interesting to use one of those point-and-shoot infrared thermometers to measure tire temps as people drive in. I'm sure you could tell a lot about tire construction, alignment, and inflation by measuring at several points across the tread. That's how the racing guys do it. ....


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DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998
Posts: 2707 NorthWest NJ
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2003-09-15          63977


Yup, it all depends on use. Long tread life is not always a good thing either, usually at odds with traction, handling....

I used to be an avid bicycle nut, before kids, I started using Michelins on the bike, I was not as happy with them as on cars.

Recently I have found that bicycle road tires have gone thru the roof, I guess it could be that a lot fewer people do it than eight years ago, most people seem to ride mountain bikes now, and my mountain bike tires look like they will last forever.

Plus with the extra pounds on me I seem to be blowing those 25mm road tires awfully quick.

So when are we starting the weight loss program!

Dennis
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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-09-15          63979


I'm reluctant to join a community weight-loss effort because my weight it coming off SO SLOW with Atkins. I've lost maybe 6 lbs in two months. Low fat diets seem to work much better for me, so I may go that route instead.

To tie it back into this thread, I can tell you when I was busting 40-50 tires/day I was in a LOT better shape. Physical labor has it's benefits :)
....


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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2003-09-15          63987


OK;
Let me add my two cents worth. Heat build up is a problem as the rate of decomposition with double for each 10 degrees C or 18 degrees F, but I don't believe that it is related to tire thickness. The heavy truck tires run for thousands of miles and are often retreaded.
I have had problems with Michelin tires breaking down on the side walls while the tread looks fine and has 80% of the tread left (measured). They had plenty of miles 60K+.
With the new compounds we tend to still look at the tread and this may not be the problem. We need to look at other problems with the tires.
Low strength on Nylon or polyester cord is normally do to residual water in processing of the fibers. Polyester is difficult to obtain the correct crystalinity to gain strength. I guess Allied France needed a polymer chemist.
I replaced a set of Goodyears at a little over 60K as they were starting to crack at the edges with lots of tread so the problem is not just Michelins. ....


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kwschumm
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2003-09-15          63991


Thanks for the engineering perspective. I was thinking the additional thickness would have an insulative effect where the peak temperature might be a bit higher and the exposure period would be a bit longer. Maybe not. ....


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F350Lawman
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2003-09-15          63992


Had a similar situation with BF Goodrich on our conversion van at 25-30,000 miles they were not wearing well. No underinflation but they got eaten up on the outsides from the weight and sideways push of the high top van in cornering. I ended up cutting one down...and then it got worse.

I WILL never buy Goodrich tire but not because of the wear issues. These were OEM equipment on many the GM vans and suburbans around 1998- 2000? , literaly millions of vehicles and Goodrich cancelled the pattern just 2 years later:(. That meant everyone who owned one of those vehicles had to buy an entire new set if they blew out one tire!

REAL NICE, Being a customized van these were white outlined tires on sporty alloy rims I had to get 4 new tires. Turning them around for blackwalls would have looked out of place.

I have also heard that some of the tire manufacturers make OEM tires that are made out of very soft rubber compounds so you get a great ride and handling at the showroom but the tradeoff is they wear horribly????? It may be true some of these tires are not available other than as original equipment. ....


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AC5ZO
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2003-09-16          64019


Tires can be engineered for a number of features. Racing tires for example are not designed as much for mileage as they are for optimal vehicle performance. That could mean high speed, good cornering, and low unsprung weight. Puncture resistance and 60K milage life don't even fit into the performance equation.

Pirelli makes some good pavement racing tires with very soft compounds. Actually all of the major manufacturers make such tires, but Pirelli markets theirs to sports car owners for street use. They may handle well, but you won't be impressed with the life. Years ago, I had a very fast RX7 and I used a little known tire called a Phoenix Stahlflex. These handled like the Pirelli but gave a 50K life. So don't rule out the little known brands if you have reason to think that they are OK. I used the same tires at track events and then drove the vehicle home.

I am certain that OEM tires are not the same as aftermarket replacements. The car manufacturers are going to press the tire suppliers for every last penny of savings. I was involved in supplying some equipment to Ford, so I can tell you about this. The major auto producers do want their vehicles to stand out, so if that involves lowering the tire pressure for soft ride or using a soft tire compound to improve handling, they will do it as long as they think it will have little impact on vehicle safety.

You have to be careful about holding a grudge against a manufacturer. If a company produces a generally good quality product, it is in their best interest to keep their customers. But, everyone screws up at one time or another. Firestone for example has made good tires for a long time. When they got involved with Ford, there were tire problems. Those problems could be due to a variety of reasons. Bridgestone (owner of Firestone) screwed up by having their foreign chairman deliver a statement that was condescending and accepted no blame. There was plenty of blame to go around. But, I would say that Firestone has had time to correct their problems and are probably producing pretty good tires right now. I don't have any data, but I know how business works. They would be foolish to have taken any other path.

I have had continuing good luck with Bridgestones (offroad tires), so I will continue to use them. If I get a bad batch sometime, the dealer will have no doubts about my dis-satisfaction. The chairman of Bridgestone may be a bonehead, but as far as I know they are still making a good tire. Friends of mine swear by BF Goodrich TAs and other brands. I have Goodrich TAs that came on my H2. When it is time to replace them, I will certainly consider Goodrich, but I may also go with Bridgestones.

The best advice that I can offer is to ask your friends if they are happy with their tires and search out other information on the Internet. ....


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kwschumm
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2003-09-16          64025


Speaking of Firestone, I know they CAN make a good tire the question is which ones are good?

Showing my age here, the Firestone 500 was a debacle pure and simple. Firestone screwed up and they know it. They replaced the 500 with the 721. The 721 was not a very reliable tire (occasional tread separations, belt slippages, etc), but at least the tread didn't go flying off whenever you hit 60 mph like it did on the 500. IIRC, the 721 was the top of the line Firestone passenger tire at the time.

The tire company I worked for sold a tire called the Gas Stretcher. This tire was made by Firestone and it was an incredibly good tire - very long life and I don't recall a single one coming back in for a workmanship claim. The Gas Stretcher was a far better tire than Firestone's best 721, so I have to wonder what they're thinking when they produce better tires for other companies than they do for themselves. ....


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AC5ZO
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2003-09-16          64026


From what I understand, most tires are made by only a few companies. The smaller brands are often spec tires and are made by the larger companies with particular specifications on the construction and materials. These smaller brands could very well use better materials and construction methods even though they are made on the same or same type of large machines.

Cost of production and sales is the reason that there are differences. The smaller brands often have little or no advertising, so they can run with a thinner profit margin. All the major producers have huge advertising budgets, own their own stores and so forth.

My dad would always buy the cheapest tires he could find. These were generally the house brand at Montgomery Wards. Every year we would go out and buy a new set of bias ply cheap tires. I broke out of that mold and bought a set of radials and they lasted more than a year. When those tires lasted more than four years, I figured that it was actually cheaper to buy the best tires that you can find even though it costs more that first day. I have not bought a "cheap" tire since that time.

There are many brands out there that do well that I do not know much about. Toyo is one of them. My wife had Toyo tires on her truck when we met, and they did very well. So, you just have to keep an open mind, ask around, and check things out as best you can before you buy. ....


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Misenplace
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2003-09-16          64036


Dennis, I bought a set of the tires you need to replace for my Bronco. Every time I drove it felt like I was driveing over speed bumps. I Put them on a spin balancer and every single tire was out of round. I talked to several tire guys and they all reccomended when buying light duty truck tires to try to stick with metric sizes rather than US sizes as the molds are made to tighter specs. Also if you have any cupping on the out side edges of your tires it is a indication of excessive speed or body roll when cornering. This is a problem in Michigan with our steep cornering highway ramps. I read recently that Cooper is currently the no 1 replacement tire on light duty trucks. One thing is certain. Once a wear pattern starts it wears more rapidly so I would definately replace them. Just inflateing will not stop a wear pattern that has already developed. In regard to the thick or thin/tire temp. This varyies by each model tire as much as manufacturer and you should spend some time looking at tires on the net so you can review the specs before you buy. As always keeping any tire inflated properly, balanced and rotated is the key to long life. When you buy new ones check each shops deals. Many places sell a $50 lifetime balance with tires. This is a great deal. Anyy shop you buy from should offer FREE rotations. Get them rotated every 6k and balanced at least every other rotation. Dave ....


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AC5ZO
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2003-09-16          64041


I agree with Dave's comments. I don't know much about Cooper tires, but they have been around a good while and I have not heard anything bad.

re: Out of Round tires...All of these that I have seen have been tread separations. The bad thing about this is that you can balance them at one speed, but they will still have a problem and the tread has often come loose at the belts, so they are dangerous to continue to use. The treads can become separated because of heat, underinflation, and a variety of other reasons. (including poor puncture plugs) ....


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