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who makes the a good back hoe

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steve4300
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 71 NH
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2005-01-15          104274


I have a JD 4300 and am thinking of putting a back-hoe on it. It will have limited use after i finish my yard . I am torn between the JD model , I think it is model 48 or one of the 3 pt hitch models. woods and kelly are the local brands. are the 3pt as strong as the factory brands



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DK35vince
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 689 Western,Pa.
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2005-01-15          104284


I have a Rhino 85 and like it (similar in size and power to the JD 48).
Personally I wouldn't run a 3 point backhoe. I would check if some of the other Mfg.'s backhoes are availible with a mounting bracket so they can be mounted on the tractor similar to the JD hoe.
My 2 cents.. ....


Link:   smc/rhino

 

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2005-01-16          104293


I used a 3ph aarps 8' on my 4400. It worked ok if I did not try to do very much. I was real concerned about the 3ph castings because of the forces involved.

I looked at a JD48 hoe all set up. Bought one in Dec 02(off season) one of the smarter and best moves I have made.

It is as soild as it gets with something that will come of or go on in under 10 minutes (15 when I'm not in a hurry).

The factory hoe will also hold its value. ....


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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2005-01-16          104295


My 48 has been a good solid unit, no problems so far. I like the frame mount feature and the easy off on system. Frank. ....


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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2005-01-16          104306


The 47 backhoe has been great on my 4310. The dealer told me the 48 would work as well but there were some areas that needed to be reinforced when going with the 48. ....


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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2005-01-16          104316


Ken What areas needed to be reinforced? I've tried to stay on top of the JD BH threads and must have missed this one.

TIA Harvey ....


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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2005-01-16          104329


Harvey, I'll have to dig up the email from my dealer on this (it's on another computer) but one of the areas that should be reinforced is the bolt holes on the rear rims. The dealer said that they have often seen those holes wallowed out on mid-frame JD's with 48 hoes. I guess they weld another ring around that area. When I bought my hoe they would have sold me a 48 but charged extra for the reinforcing work. ....


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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2005-01-16          104345


Thanks Ken I guess I do remember that comment somewhere back there.

I just left the thought with the lug nut problem on the very early models. As I recall one side had a problem and it was finially tracked down to overtapped holes or something like that.

The biggest grumble I have with the lugnuts is they are behind the little dinky wheel weights.

I use the hoe quite a bit and usually only use the stick to move the tractor. So the hoe usually has the tractor in the air moving fwd and side to side. I know that is not how the book says to do it. But I am comfortable with it. I have not seen any looseness between the tractor and hoe with all of the stress I put on it.

Thanks again Harvey ....


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steve4300
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 71 NH
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2005-01-16          104354


okay lugnut proplem i found mine loose on the rear right, a couple really loose ....


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dfkrug
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 171 NorCal
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2005-01-19          104502


I have found that you have to be religeous about checking all bolted connections when using a backhoe. That means on the subframe and its various mounting points, as well as (apparently) the wheel lugs. The manufacturers of the hoes sometimes state that bolts must be tightened after every use.

I have also noticed that dealer-serviced tractors have wheels studs and lugs that are so tight that I need a 4-ft breaker bar to remove them! That's beyond the capability of my "earthquake" pneumatic wrench. ....


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steve4300
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 71 NH
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2005-01-19          104522


what is better a backhoe that uses the tractor hydrolics or one that has a pump that runs off the pto. ....


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dfkrug
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2005-01-19          104525


The only advantage that PTO pump hydraulics have is that it is a standard interface to a lot of tractors. If I were selling backhoes for customers to put on their own CUTs, the easiest way to get them up and running is with a PTO pump and reservoir system. Most CUTs don't have the remote hydraulics added, and each tractor is different, so adding hydraulics can be involved.

This same approach applies to the physical backhoe connection: the standard connection is the 3 point hitch. The good connection is a subframe. Unfortunately all CUTs are different, so different subframes are required.

In both cases the standard connections are inferior, but have certain selling advantages.

PTO vs. tractor hydraulics have been debated at length on this and other forums, BTW. ....


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JimP
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 58 NY
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2005-01-20          104534


Another very large determing factor in tractor hydraulics vs PTO pump question is the output of the hydraulic pump on your tractor. The puny 3GPM on my tractor would just not cut it, as even the smallest backhoes require something on the order of 7-8 GPM to operate efficiently. You also need to subtract any other circuits that use the tractor hydraulics such as power steering. In some cases PTO pump is the only solution. In your case with a JD4300, I'm pretty sure the tractor hydraulic pump is large enough to drive their JD47 backhoe -- I'll let JD4300/4310 owners correct me if I am wrong. ....


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dfkrug
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2005-01-20          104559


What CUTs only deliver 3 GPM? Only very old or very small ones. Most 20+ hp CUTs within the past 20 years can deliver 7-9 GPM at the rated engine RPM. The newest 30hp CUTs are often as high as 11GPM.

Also, 3.5-5 GPM is all you need to run your 7.5 ft backhoe at a decent speed. This means you only have to run a typical modern CUT at 1500-2000 RPM to achieve that hydraulic pump flow rate.

Finally, the fact that a tractor uses one pump for steering, loader, HST, and auxilliary hydraulics in series has no bearing on required hydraulic pump flow capacity.
If you operate a backhoe, that is the only hydraulic load you use at that time. The most likely scenario for using 2 loads at once is steering while you operate your loader. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2005-01-20          104561


A popular misconception with hydraulic systems, usually caused by somewhat misleading advertising, is that the flow rates are going to be much higher than they are in the real world.

The first big trick is to state 'total' hydraulic output, without explain the system in any great detail.

On average, the power steering system gets the first 40% of the rated output. Notice I used the words "first" and "rated" in that sentence. If the system has a "rated" output of 12GPM the power steering will get 40% or about 5GPM, however, the power steering system is normally fed by a "priority flow divider valve" which means in reality the power steering system will take the first 5GPM regadless of how much the system is making. The remote SCV only gets what is leftover.

System losses, such as the fluid being routed through a FEL or the 3pth will further reduce flow rates, as will the fact that some published ratings are actually "bench rates", that means they rated the pump on a test bench, not in a tractor.

Most spec. sheets (if you read them carefully) do actually break it down and state the maximum for the remote outlets.

Best of luck. ....


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dfkrug
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Posts: 171 NorCal
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2005-01-21          104623


Since this discussion is about backhoes, the full hydraulic system flow rate is available to the hoe since no other hydraulic loads are used when the hoe is used. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2005-01-21          104635


"the full hydraulic system flow rate is available to the hoe..."

Never. Can't happen, a physical impossibility.

Even Deere's website say that on a 4310, the full system flow is 13.9GPM, but that the power steering gets 5.3GPM, and the remotes get a MAXIMUM of 8.6GPM.

The only time the full system flow is available to any one source is when the pump is bolted to a test bench.

Best of luck. ....


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dfkrug
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2005-01-21          104657


Well, a quick survey of tractor specs shows that some use a separate pump for power steering and another pump for the 3-pt and auxiliary valves. Others have just one pump. I do not know about the JD 4310.

If I were to take the Kubota L3130, specs show it to have 2 pumps with the PS pump rated at 4.9 gpm and the implement pump rated 8.3 GPM. A total would be 13.2 GPM, also listed in the specs. That total is a useless number in that no reasonable person would think that more than 8.3 GPM would be available to any implement. Something close to 8.3 GPM should be available to any implements, I would think.

Now look at a "budget" L Kubota, like the L2500. It has one pump and it is rated at 7.2 GPM. When you said that some of your Deere's pump output is always routed through the power steering, I tried to find some indication of this for this Kubota. I found nothing in the specs, but I DID find that the factory loader specs for this tractor list loader speed ratings of about 10% less if the tractor has PS. That means about 6.5 GPM is available for implements.
So do you think 0.7 GPM is always roted thru the PS?

I can tell you, two pumps really make a difference.

....


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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2005-01-22          104738


Your supply is a variable in this system with a single pump. On 2600 tractors from driving them I'd say they maybe have about 2 gallon potential draw. There is much that goes into this as you also have the type of power steering which also gets into the type and size of cylinders. Interesting thought for you boys that the 80's Ford 7000 series an 85 horsepower farm tractor only had a 7 gallon per minute pump for the hitch and remotes. There are different results from the different makes tractors in there steering. Some can have a full bucket and at a idle or near they can rotate the front from end to end. ....


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dfkrug
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2005-01-25          104902


My next experiment is to measure the flow rate to the backhoe and see how close it is to the spec.

I still don't see using the PS while running the hoe..... ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2005-01-26          104945


Ah-ha, maybe we just found the source of your confusion.

You don't USE the power steering while the machine is sitting still doing B/H work, but the fluid flowing out of a single pump gets split by a priority dividing valve long before it can get to the remotes or B/H.

This splitter valve has no idea of the load on each leg of the system, and doesn't care either, it merely divides the flow into two paths and sends it on it's seperate ways.

So, regardless of whether it is being used or not the system sends a certain portion of the flow to the power steering system, if it is not needed it merely cycles back into the reservoir.

Also, as Art alluded to, actual flow is considerably different from the 'spec.'s' which are often either a hypothetical number, or derived from a bench test. That is why they often describe them as "pump capacity" instead of describing what comes out of the remote. All those hoses, pipes, valves, and most particularly, quick disconnect fittings, rob flow along the way.

I found this out the hard way with the hyd. sanders we run, they require about 16 litres per minute, about half the "rated" flow of 35 litres per minute we should have available, but they barely worked. When we removed the quick disconnects and plumbed them in directly they worked just fine.

Best of luck. ....


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dfkrug
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2005-01-26          104969


Didn't know I was confused.....

As I said, JD indicates that as much as 10% of the rated implement flow is lost to the PS circuit. It does not indicate if that loss occurs when the PS is being used or not. That is on a one-pump machine. Of course, I can easily tell the difference between my one-pump and 2-pump Kubotas when I drive them and steer while operating the loader. Harder to tell with the JDs.

It is also quite apparent that there are significant hydraulic losses in the plumbing for auxilliary valves (and quick-disconnects). Notice how fast the hyd fluid gets hot when you are pumping at the rated flow.

If you want to enlighten me, tell me how one-pump tractors accomplish flow diversion using their open center hydraulics.

Thanks for your inputs.

....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2005-01-26          104983


I'm not entirely sure about that 10% figure, it doesn't make any sense.

Take for example, the only two similar current Kubota models in which one has power steering the other not, the B7410 (manual steering) and the B7510 (power steering).

The 7410 has a single pump and no PS and it has a hyd. output of 3.9 GPM, the 7510 has two pumps and power steering and a total output of 7.0 GPM.

Since the 7510 is only 3 gross engine hp. and 75 or 100 pounds heavier I find it hard to believe that the nearly doubled hydraulic output is for anything but the power steering. That seems to equate to the ratios of the dual pump machines also.

As for open center, that has little to do with where the fluid flows, only how.

Best of luck. ....


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dfkrug
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2005-02-07          105653


OK, I took some measurements. My JD 955 (33 hp one pump tractor) delivers about 5.6 GPM to my backhoe at the rated RPM of 3100. The JD spec says 7.2 GPM. Some of the hydraulic flow definitely seems to be diverted. I would still like to know how this is accomplished in a one-pump open center system. Anybody know?

I took my measurements by timing the operation of my largest cylinder, the 3" dipperstick cylinder on my Prairie Dog 7.5 hoe at two different RPMs. Actual volume of the cylinder was measured to be 90.7 cubic inches.

I find that I get plenty of cylinder actuation speed at about 4 GPM, measured. This equates to about 2200 engine RPM, significantly below the 3100 full RPM for this machine.

....


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