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wva-dsk
Join Date: Sep 2006
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2006-09-17          135231


I have a small piece of land in WV that's pretty flat, but does have one holler running through it which needs a road put up it. I'm wondering if I can avoid hiring a dozer to push a road up in there by using a box scraper instead.

It seems to me that if I went back and forth along the hillside in the holler (not too steep but steep enough that it needs work) with a box scraper, and lots of patience, then I should be able to work a narrow road bed into the hill over time. I've never used a box scraper before so maybe I'm asking too much of the device. Anyone have any thoughts here, or an alternative approach to getting the job done?

Thanks
WVA-DSK




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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2006-09-17          135233


I'd be inclined to think the dozer is the right tool for that job. Get it done right the first time, then use the box blade for regular road maintenance

//greg// ....


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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2006-09-17          135235


I had a small dozer in and loader and was moving earth from the front to the back of the house. In levelling I could move earth as quickly as the dozer, but in deep cuts there was no way.
If you have a heavy box blade, teeth,hydraulic top link and possibly side link, you could probably do it fairly quickly.
....


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dsg
Join Date: Jun 1999
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2006-09-17          135236


A Box Blade ain't no dozer with a six way blade.

David ....


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wva-dsk
Join Date: Sep 2006
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2006-09-17          135237


OK, sounds like that idea was pretty roundly rejected. But I still can't help but think that I'll have to give it a shot. This will mainly be a logging path and I'm in no rush to make it as quickly as a dozer could. And some of the box scapers I've seen look capable of moving the limited amount of soil I'm thinking of, so I might have to give it a try anyway. At least to satisfy my curiousity before hiring the bull dozer.

Thanks,
WVA-DSK ....


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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2006-09-18          135242


If you are going to buy the tractor and the blade to maintain the road then it might be worth it to attempt it.
I would purchase the shuttle shift or hydro for this as it is a lot of back and forth.
The man I purchased my 755 from in KY had but in a good sized pond with the little tractors blade and bucket. I think it took about 200 hours on the tractor. With a small dozer it would have taken about 16 hours.
The tractor will not do things like pushing large stumps over, but there are limits to what a large piece of equipment can do too. The tractor can do them but you don't want to push it and be prepared to take some time. ....


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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
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2006-09-18          135243


WVA,
It takes good traction and horsepower to move dirt with a blade. Will you be moving rocks? How about stumps? If yes the size of those will dictate the equipment and its size. A box blade works fine for me to move dirt but I am terrible with it to grade. I find a blade better but with out ends it does not move dirt as far. I have watch a short road being built on flat farm land near my house. They have used dozer, track hoe (excavator) and road plow. I could have done as good of job with my scrape blade and tractor as they did on the ditches.

Will you be able to drive a tractor through the area you need the road to pull the dirt or do you need to push the dirt to provide a surface to drive on? Pushing backwards with a tractor gets tiring and if into a drop off that could roll a tractor is dangerous as close as your rear tires are to the blade. If so a frontend loader would be safer as you have a little more clearance and better view looking forward. Probably better control of your equipment also.

Hey, if you have the equipment and time, give it a try. Be safe, have fun.
....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2006-09-18          135245


A friend of mine put in a decent driveway to his place, it sounds like the terrain is similar, with a tiny mini-excavator.

All he did was dig a slot into the hill, dumping the spills on the downhill side, then he used his little tractor to smooth it out and pack it some. In one weeks holidays he had a decent driveway in.

It settled a lot, and took some heavy maintenance for the first few years, but it served his purpose.

Best of luck. ....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2006-09-18          135261


My 6' box scraper can move about a 1/4 yard of dirt at a time, on level ground. Not productive. Now put it at an angle to the hillside and you lose more than half. A good small or medium size dozer seems the way to go. You might want to rent one for three days to a week and you might be amazed what you can get done in a short amount of time. Keep in kind that it's more than just cutting into the side at 90 degrees to the road bed---you'll have cut another angle up into the hill to slow errosion, and the inevitable dirt or mud slide. Also, you'll probably have to start the width of the road bed edge at the lowest part of the hillside. Otherwise, the spoils will be loose and not compact at the same rate as the virgin hillside and will slide down the hillside. ....


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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2006-09-18          135268


WVA; I'm with the guys that say give it a shot. Long as you have the time and equipment and are aware of the safety issues of hill side work. It can be dangerous but doesn't have to be with a little old fashiond take your time and think about it a minute before hand strategy. Again if time isn't an issue I've moved lots of dirt with a box scraper and the FEL. Mine has manual adjust scarifier teeth and manual tilt on the tractor three point, so that means I have to stop to adjust things as the need demands but you still will be amazed at what you can acomplish. It's kind of a neat feeling to look back and say "Hey, I did that myself." And lastly if you get overwhelmed by the project you can allways hire the dozer and let him finish up. Have fun. Frank. ....


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earthwrks
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2006-09-18          135271


It goes without saying but I'll say it anyway. 25 years ago my uncle who was doing exactly what you want to do in the mountains of Tennessee with a Massey-Ferguson with no ROPS. He was grading the road downhill. Apparently while looking rearward likely holding onto the left rear fender he drifted toward the up-hill side of the mountain, the tractor overturned. He was found 6 hours later with the rear tractor tire on his chest which had kept rotating for some time...you get the picture. This guy was no dummy either; accidents do happen. ....


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wva-dsk
Join Date: Sep 2006
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2006-09-18          135273


That's a lot of great feed back. And that last little anecdote will definitely give me pause before I dive into this project whole hog. I won't have any stumps, and only small rocks to deal with. And I can keep off the steep stuff and stick to the relatively shallow slopes. The idea of digging a trench first sounds like a real good way to get started as well. And since this will mainly be a track for my tractor to get up the holler and skid a few logs back down, I'm not too concerned about how long it takes.

But the thought of renting a dozer for the weekend sounds pretty appealing too. Might have to look into that one.

Thanks,
WVA-DSK ....


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Iowafun
Join Date: Jul 2004
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2006-09-20          135316


As I think you've found out, there are a 1,001 waysto do a job and get opinions on this board. If time isn't a factor, go for it. If renting a dozer is appealing, do that. If the time on your tractor means your wife/sig other won't be riding you butt about something, then by all means use the box blade. I enjoy tractor time as it lowers my blood pressure and improves my mood. ....


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Iowafun
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2006-09-20          135317


As I think you've found out, there are a 1,001 waysto do a job and get opinions on this board. If time isn't a factor, go for it. If renting a dozer is appealing, do that. If the time on your tractor means your wife/sig other won't be riding you butt about something, then by all means use the box blade. I enjoy tractor time as it lowers my blood pressure and improves my mood. ....


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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2006-09-20          135319


LOL!

You can do the job with a pick and shovel too, just takes longer.

Every thing is on a time scale, dozer on one end, shovel on the other, and tractor/box blade somewhere in between. ....


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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2006-09-20          135322


I guess I was thinking along the lines of DR. If you look at what was moved with pick shovel and old wheel barrel for the Erie Canal it can be done. It just takes a lot more time. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2006-09-20          135324


This very thread came up in a conversation with my construction manager this morning, his idea was a good one.

If you were to do this with a rear blade with 2 way rotation to the blade, you could rotate the blade to horizontal and bring the uphill side forward a little and dig a flat notch into the hillside even though the machine was sitting on an angle. If you repeated the process, you could fairly easily carve a flat notch into the hill.

Best of luck. ....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2006-09-20          135326


Murf if I understand you right, from my experience pushing a back blade in reverse hasn't worked for two reasons: no down pressure combined with the hitch geometry causing it to ride up. And traction just isn't the same due to the geometry in reverse. With my box scraper I can move 3-5 times the dirt pulling it than I can pushing it, not so much the box configuration but the loss of traction. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2006-09-20          135327


EW, you didn't understand me right. LOL.

I din't mean the blade on the back of the box blade, I meant a regular old style rear scraper blade. See link below.

The blade can be pivoted such that one tip or the other digs in far more than the other, as well as angles like a snow plow.

By doing this you can concentrate the digging force exactly where you want it, for pulling soil off the uphill side.

Best of luck. ....


Link:   Rhino Rear Blade.

 

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2006-09-20          135328


I have to agree with Earthworks a regular rear blade just isn't heavy enough to dig much of anything, and even a box scraper without scarifiers won't do a lot. I had a hydraulic adjust rear blade that looked like the real scnazoo, but in reality it just did'nt have enough weight to make it cut in. I finally sold it. Best of luck. Frank. ....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2006-09-20          135329


Murf I understood you correctly the first time; I was making a separate point about the box blade and traction. I have hydraulic-adjust on a landscape rake. And just like anything else that has a blade that pivots, the center of engagement is not the same as the optimal center-line of traction vehicle. If that relationship changes from directly down the centerline of the vehicle, either the vehicle is going to slide or slip sideways, or, the tool will engage. Most times with a CUT slippage will occur to do any reasonable amount of work----but if you could move the tip of the blade to the center... now we can talk (but you still need down-force). ....


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ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2006-09-20          135330


I used my 2way rotation rear blade to dig into the side of a hill for a very short stretch a while ago - just to make a short road to get my tractor through - maybe 75 feet or so. You have to be VERY careful that the blade does not tip your tractor off your inside wheel. I couldn't get the force I would have liked into the side of the hill. I ended up turning my tractor around and using the backhoe to create the notch into the side hill. ....


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wva-dsk
Join Date: Sep 2006
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2006-09-20          135332


Lots of great feedback, but that last one is what I was really waiting to hear. Some real been-there, done-that experience talking. I can see how getting the tool off center line (as stated earlier) would cause the tractor to slide, I've experienced that one before. If I tried it with a box scraper I'd definitely invest in the scarifiers. Guess I'm disappointed to hear the back blade doesn't work so well, or is prone to tipping the tractor. But I've heard to experiences that first trenched the hillside and the started leveling from there. Sounds like a promising approach. I'll have to give it a try.

WVA-DSK ....


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earthwrks
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2006-09-20          135333


Another option ---and this depends on the angle of the hillside---is dig your trench or if the hill is low enough run a single-bottom plow at the high side in the path you want to go. A few times in the same line might give you enough drop for the hillside wheel to make the tractor level eventually. You'll have to run the plow the same way everytime in order to move or windrow the spoils. I've done a little excavating with my tracked skid steer in Ohio on the Maumee River where the where the embankments run 200 feet and so steep I could barely get traction getting back up (backing a bobcat up the hill was the only way). This brings me to my next point and that is if you can, start your road at the highest point, and work down. You would be amazed how gravity can work for or against you when it comes to road building like yours.

Also, have you thought of using a bobcat? Get a big one--2500 lb. load rating. To get a level pad for the road started simply drive 90 degrees into the hill and make a flat surface.

A little anecdote: I saw on TV how a gold mining operation built roads in South America on an island. They put the road at the very top (the peak) of the mountain range when they could. They would helicopter a small Caterpillar-brand dozer so small it had to be the size of a riding mower. They would successively use larger and wider Cats until the road was 30-40 wide. But they always tried to go down hill whenever possible. ....


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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2006-09-20          135334


EW I think the mine was in New Guinea not South America. One of my best friend in elementary school was born there, in that general area where the mine is. It was interesting how they made the road to the mine. The little indonesia that made the road had kahonas the size of grapefruits. ....


Link:   Grasberg Mine

 

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bvance
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2006-09-20          135337


I've also tried this with my BX and a box blade with very little success. The box blade will cut at the same angle the tractor is on...in other words replicating the same slope you already have. You can change the angle of the box blade a bit by changing the one arm's length, but not enough to change the angle of the hill much. If you were on a relatively flat surface and just moving dirt from a high spot to a low spot, it will work great.

Murf's suggestion of a straight blade has some merit, but I also agree with other posts, when I try to do anything with my box blade on much of a side-slope, it gets a very tipsy feeling that I am just not comfortable with. If you can use a box blade on other jobs (I think a box blade is one of the most all around useful 3pt attachments) then go ahead and get it and try it. None of us truly know the degree of slope and how much you need to move etc. My guess is you will end up renting a dozer.

Good Luck,
Brian ....


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kthompson
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2006-09-21          135341


As to Murf's suggestion on the blade and others comments on pulling off center line, man how often are you pulling dead center with a blade? I thought when you had a blade that rotates two different direction it was expected that one edge would be cutting while often the other end could be totally clear. I thought that was when you used the lift to only take the amount of bit or cut your tractor's weight and front wheels could hold and pull at the direction you wanted it to. Back up to having the time needed for the job.

I have never operated a bull dozier, but can you not load up one end of it's blade to the point it will not push straight?

If you can not work with a scrape blade like this, never ever hook up to a side mount cutter or you will only cut in a small circle. ....


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earthwrks
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2006-09-21          135349


Ken, a properly set-up scraper blade should be touching the ground equally---you CAN adjust it to dig on one side or the other. You can and I have loaded a dozer to get it to slide two ways: with the blade flat to the ground and a heavy, non-movable load ahead the blade and dozer want to slide the opposite way of the blade tilt. Another example of sliding is a little different. I call it dancing. This is when the blade is tilted fore-aft and up-down for maximum engagement at the lower tip. Go up to a tree stump, like a lob lolly pine and you can get the dozer to slide around it in a circular pattern---only because the off-center condition. Another exmaple is a cow catcher on a train or a v-snowplow either on a train or truck. The shape allows for centerline alignment. If the bade were fixed on way ot the toher th danger would be that striking and object te machine would ramp-off the opposite direction. I have operated straight-blade snow plows and tried to plow through semi-frozen road shoulder snow. You'll spin the the entire truck around if hit just right. That's ne of the reasons why I have a v-plow--I can hit it and the centerline is aligned and I can plow right through it. ....


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ncrunch32
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2006-09-21          135351


Kthompson, the major problem with doing this with a rear blade is that the tractor is generally leaning away from the hillside. So the weight of the tractor is not where you need it to gouge into the side of the hill with the edge of the blade. So if you hit something hard with the blade it can easily knock the tractor off balance. Even slight turns can be treacherous when the edge of your blade is moving against the hill. ....


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kthompson
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2006-09-21          135352


EW,
I do not agree with "a properly set up scraper blade should be touching the ground equally".

If that is true all blades should be box blades with no rotation or any kind. They also would not make them with changeable end blades either. I truly believe they should be touching the ground as the job you are doing needs them to. If that were true how do you ever get a crown on a road?

Ncrunch,
The fact you have the tractor on a slope I realize is not the same as totally flat ground. I realize that may not be the most desired situation but I still believe it might be workable. As to hitting anything hard or immoveable that is why you should be driving slowly.

I do understand there is a danger of rolling the tractor. Hey, they happens here with no mountains.

I have no problem saying it is best to hire a truly professional company to come in there and build that road. They will bring in dozer, road plow, packer, track hoe, rubber tire hoe, dump truck, fuel tank, signs they are working as you may or know realize that. Then the guy hops on the tractor and blade and cuts the road. LOL WAIT! That was a truly professional guy who suggested that was it not?

Just remember it was professionals who built the Titanic and amateurs who built the Ark!

Be careful and God Bless, Have fun building that road and take pictures and let us see.


....


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Murf
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2006-09-21          135353


EW, with all due respect, your statement that "a properly set-up scraper blade should be touching the ground equally" is a little misleading.

It depends *entirely* on what you are trying to do, and what the conditions are.

As for centerline pull, don't forget, if you engage the blade with only the outboard uphill side of the blade, the balde will try to pull the front of the tractor up-slope, but gravity and wheel slip will try to pull the front wheels back down-slope.

Believe me, we have carved enough golf cart paths into hillsides over the years to be able to say with confidence, if you balance the load and traction just right, it works surprisingly well.

The real key to *any* ground-engaging task is proper ballasting, without it you're just spinning your wheels, literally!!!

Best of luck. ....


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earthwrks
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2006-09-21          135354


Murf I was referring to KT's last post, not necessarily this subject at hand of the unususal circumstance to grade into a hillside. In generalistic terms, yes, you are right about the things you've done with success---they were doable. But I'm reluctant to suggest that "anything is possible". In practice (or practise, eh? LOL) that if anyone reading these posts who jumps head-long into a project may not have the forethought or insight that his situation has to be different than these posts. A few more pounds of ballast on the front would make or break the job. Or 2WD vs. 4WD; ribbed front tires vs. R-4 vs turf. A 6' vs. an 8' scraper. Rocky vs. sandy. All it takes is one detail left out.

But I'm jis' sayin' ....


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kthompson
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2006-09-22          135368


EW,

I am confused by your comment it was referring to my last post. Either I am mising something which is highly possible or back to slow southerner.

I know there is much that can be done safely if you take it slow and easy. Along a line I grew up with, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Not that I ever understood why anyone would skin a cat. I think that fits with moving dirt and using blades. ....


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grassgod
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2006-10-11          135883


I am right on track with you Murf...I installed a small driveway recently with a mini X & it worked well. The grader blade works great & moves alot of earth! ....


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