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PTO 6X6 dump trailer

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2007-01-27          139198


Need some thoughts on my next project. Have a old 1955 GMC dump truck.

Thought is: cut it down to the frame git rid of cab, motor and steer axle. Mount the transmission in the frame, closer to rear axle, use the PTO to power the drive line for a 6X6 effect to move thru steep or soft areas. Plus will have the hyd dump box. Will have hyd brakes for down grades.

Still have to look at all rotations. May have to use 2 transmissions to slow down ground speed.

ANY THOUGHTS? TIA Harvey




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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2007-01-27          139200


Harvey--clarification:

If you remove the steer axle then you really don't have a 6x6 (it's a tandem axle right?)---you have a semi-self-propelled trailer "steered" by the tractor, right?

The biggest problems I see are 1.) If you remove the ballast weight of the cab etc. there's a greater chance to either overturn the rig (front to back and side to side)and what it's attached to--you lose a tremendous amount of stability removing the front axle.

And the bigger problem: Matching ground speed perfectly between the tow vehicle and the trailer. Otherwise, whichever has the most traction will take over, and that could be disasterous going down hill if the trailer is pushing the tractor--it WILL jacknife. Uphill the tractor will tend to slide to whichever side of the road is lower or looser--like being on ice. Minimally, you will spin tires--which equates to lost traction on loose dirt. OR bind up AND break something in the driveline due to driveline buildup.

If money isn't a big deal, sell the dump and buy a newer military dump a true 6x6--they can be had for about $10,000. Or find a 6wd chassis cab from a wrecked utility truck or concrete truck and swap the dump bed.

Or just buy a 6wd dump.

The whole exercise seems like a big job from any angle. And what will it be worth when you're done? Hint the new "owner" will be paying by the pound. :) ....


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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2007-01-28          139219


4X4 tractor plus pto driven trailer axle = 6X6

Yes I understand matching the ground speed. That is why I may have to add a second trans. The trailer only has to assist in soft or steep going so some mismatch is no problem.

Biggest concern at the moment is rotations is all are the same it's easy if not reverse gear boxes, reducers etc.

Can not buy to my knowledge a trailer that has ground driving wheels.

The 55 has a 2-3 yard box its a perfect size for the small tractor, 7.5' wide and 4' to top edge of box when finished. A old 6X6 military truck would never work in some of the places I go.

It will be a good exercise to build something that makes my life easier. It will keep me from having a bunch of extra spare time, chasing wild neighbor women...

I'll have less than $350 in it plus a whole bunch of time.

When I'm dead I don't think I'll care what it sells for.
....


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earthwrks
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2007-01-28          139220


Okay, I didn't realize this was a small dumper. I got that from you saying a 6x6 effect (two axles in rear one in front)--but basically you have a 2wd, single-axle, dual-tired rear axle truck if I understand?

That's fairly easy to power it if that's the case. Propelled trailers have been around for probably 50 or more years especially in the UK. Some die-hard fourwheelers out west build/use them too. But these are not dump trailers where they have to worry about overturning. I think it's Unimog that uses a PTO drive shaft that is part of the trailer hitch---it runs right through it.

If you're not loading it to the max, overturning shouldn't a problem---but I will tell you that I have a 12,500 GVW 5yd dump trailer that I filled with broken asphalt and dirt while it was on level ground and off the truck. I stood on the tongue while I raising it to operate the raising control to get the tongue off the pavement to block under the jack which it slipped off earlier. The box was raising but the tongue wan't going up---all of a sudden I'm standing on the tongue 8' in the air and the back of the trailer in reast on the ground with one set of tires off the ground. Even when done properly connected to the truck and dumping lik I should, I can lift the rear wheels of the truck off the ground enough that I have to put it in 4wd to pull away. But I'm jis' sayin'

I would leave the front frame the way it is without the cab etc and remove the front cross member then bend the frame horns together to form the tongue. I see a lot of that here in 'sippi--utility trailers made from a truck they found.

That said, your drive situation may be easier than first thought. You don't even a PTO-drive assist. A simple hydraulic motor powered by the remotes or any adequate hydraulic source. You have to determine how to plumb it so that when it's not actuated that it doesn't become a brake. ....


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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2007-01-28          139222


I got the idea while in Korea watching the farmers there. They have all kinds of improvised things to make their lives easier. But they are still some of the hardest working people I have seen.

Their little tractors and pto powered carts were the cats butt in the paddies.

It is something to keep me off the streets and away from the wild neighbor ladies ;-)

Thanks for the input. I do not expect it to be to complicated. Just gotta get started. The truck has been here for a year now...

PS. You will get that very light front end thing when you do not open the tail gate. Worst case I've ever seen with our big dump trucks is box stuck in air and WILL NOT come down with out the help of other equipment. ....


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earthwrks
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2007-01-28          139268


Harvey---funny you mention the bed in the air thing---when I was 15 and had a learners permit, it just that--except I had the front end off the ground so high (near vertical) I could not open the door or get out. I had a load of wet sand that wouldn't come out (I got pulled over for being overloaded and was told I to unload at a dump--flustered, I forgot to open the tailgate) Up and over it went. The sand slowly spilled out after what seemed to take forever. Then all of a sudden it came smashing down--all I remember was seeing seeing the sky, then tall treetops, the ground---back up to the tree tops, the ground--lower treetops, the ground and finally one last bounce. I about crapped my pants. That little side trip put me about 2 hours behind to the job for my dad. Being a new truck I thought I was going to get the s--- beat out of me. Instead, he laughed. Two weeks later he got the real ticket in the mail. Then the feathers flew. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2007-01-29          139295


Harvey, we used something similar on a remote job a few times.

PTO powered will also severly limit your turning radius.

The two big differences were that the trailers were a) hydrostat drive, powered by a stand alone engine, and b) it drive was push only, it went through a sort of ratchet mechanism, using theose free-wheeling Warn hubs on the drive axle so if you drove faster than the trailer was set to, it would free-wheel instead of drag.

This second part was important, it allowed you to point it into some really nasty stuff and not have to fumble with controls when it started to bog down, if the speed dropped below the set point of the drive, the trailer would automatically start to help until you sped up again.

The only other comment I would have, based on doing these types of trailers at the farm, is be sure the box is well back over the axle, like the old municipal 3 ton work trucks were, otherwise you will have so much tongue weight it will be a real problem. You don't want more than about 10% tongue weight on a rig like this.

Best of luck. ....


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harvey
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2007-01-29          139299


Thanks Murf

There is nothing quite like a project. Nothing is locked in stone.

Expect to use lots of gas and rod, coggering it together.

If it works great. If it does not we'll cogger at it till it does.

I like the idea of the overruning hubs/clutch. Will ponder on that some more. ....


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earthwrks
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2007-01-29          139317


Murf what do you think of a hydraulic motor on the input shaft of the trans (for a gear range) coupled by a standard PTO overrunning clutch? Wouldn't that solve any locking hubs/clutches issues?

My mid-size General-brand backhoe uses a hydraulic motor coupled to a 4x4 truck, 2-spd, transfer case which direct-drives into the rear axle pinion. In between the transfer case and the rear axle is a disc parking brake. The rear axle is a limited-slip, narrowed, Dana 60 with a 6:1 ratio. I hear this was a common set up with hi-los in the 70's and early 80's. It's quite effective. This backhoe shared lineage and parts with Case, and the ScatBack loader. ....


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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
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2007-01-30          139325


As Murf pointed out the turning radius sure will be affected by a spinning pto shaft. The double pto jointed pto unit would help. Have no idea if it would be enough. You may wish to hook up to a hay baler or such and test the turn radius with that set up. Or just read the manual for it.

The second item is pto speed does not remain constant. It does vary with engine speed and of course ground speed varies with engine speed and gear.

EW, the overrunning pto clutch came to my mind yesterday. That probably would solve the trailer pushing the tractor due to going down hill. (I only am talking about speeding up the pto shaft here and thus the engine.) I don't think it would prevent the trailer pushing the tractor due to tractor say bogging. Do wonder how the tractor's built in over running pto clutch would hold up for that.

I would assume you would be hitching to a fix draw bar and not the 3 pt hitch. Another question I have and have no idea, does your tractor's hyd have the fluid capacity to operate the dump cylinder.

Harvey, sure not saying you can not do it, find it interesting. Keep us posted.
....


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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
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2007-01-30          139329


Turning radius is a non-issuse. At least I do not see one. Do understand the limits. Spread more manure than I care to admit, baled enought hay to last a life time, still enjoy running choppers and hay bines, nothing beats fresh chopped corn or fresh mowed hay aroma.

Looking at the thoughts others have and will start cutting when weather breaks.

Keep the ideas comming. Harvey ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2007-01-30          139330


EW, that would work, my only thought, without doing the math, would be picking a gear, shifting would be a PITA if not impossible on the fly.

There is a company not far from here that I did some consulting work for years back, they were customizing compact 4X4 pickups for working underground in the mines. They had replaced the engine and trans. with a small air cooled diesel and a hydrostat sytem that drove the input shaft of the transfer case as you described. The difference was they used a swash plate style setup to give them speed range with a constant engine RPM. The engine was something like 18hp. and the prototype would easily pull a 3,000 pound pump on wheels up the very steep ramp to the next level.

The over-running PTO clutches, either internal or external, are not designed to run free for any length of time, just a few minutes at a time. In short order you would have some bad wear occuring.

Best of luck. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2007-01-30          139331


Harvey, I don't mean turning radius as in going around a bend in the trail or turning in the yard.

I was referring to having to make tight 3 point turns and such in the tough stuff. Generally speaking, at least in our case, we needed the trailer boost when the going was VERY bad, places where you might have to jack-knife the rig just to make a corner or turn around.

A hydraulic hose bends a BUNCH better than a U-joint does. ;)

Best of luck. ....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2007-01-30          139332


Kenny I agree. With an overrunning clutch either on a hydraulic motor or a PTO, or even ratcheting axle lockouts there will be freewheeling if the trailer even slightly exceeds the speed of the tractor and thus a lack of potential control particulary down hill or when slowing/stopping (absent any braking device on the trailer). In a slogging-through-the-mud situation the clutch would enagage pushing itself to the extent the tractor/operator allows. The overrunning clutch solves the power enagagement issue.

The other issue would be braking and that's pretty simple.
A hydraulic disc/drum brake trailer hitch coupler (available from Titan/Dico for about $400) are found on things like boat trailers with hydraulic brakes (versus electric) and haul-it-yourself concrete buggies.
....


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earthwrks
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2007-01-30          139333


How about a skid steer variable displacement pump (SSVDP) powered either by the PTO or hydraulic motor powered by the tractor's hydraulic system. The SSVDP would power a hydraulic motor driving the transmission.

....


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harvey
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2007-01-30          139334


Murf you are correct with the jack-knife. I'm ah thinkin no tighter than the turns on the head lands of a field.

I'm beginning to like the hydraulic/hydrostatic drive thought.

Should not add to much to the cost. However you know me. I'll wait a year or 2 for the right deal. Woodspliter a prime example.

We use lots of hyd/hydro drives here...

thanks Harvey ....


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kthompson
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2007-02-02          139492


Harvey, was looking at your info and wonder with the amount of land why you wanted this trailer. Then saw the trailers of firewood...will it be big enough? You must employee a dozen beavers. :)

....


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harvey
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2007-02-02          139499


KT if it was just my land you would be correct. My oldest has 15 acres of all wood. I am surounded by state land and that is $15 per standard cord. If I get that and have the time. I also barter (not really. I buy the Logs incase the IRS reads this) ;-) logs with another neighbor.

Bought that old spreader (it came full of compost) at a auction for $35.00

The 2 local farmers where I hunt Coyotes and woodchucks have over 1500 acres. Of course the field stone they have is the other reason for dump.

I have a trout stream in my back yard and I'd like to install some gabion baskets along a couple bends. Just so happen to have some baskets at work that are bent and the state would not let them be used. I say waste not. My boss (one of the owners) will let me have them.

Free rock free baskets free time free sweat. Life is good! OH YEA some diesel! ....


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