Go Bottom

Pulling down trees

View my Photos
Bob A.
Join Date:
Posts: 1
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2000-06-08          17037


I want to remove a tree that's down on my propery and it's 79 ft away on a hillside. The tree top is in a shallow stream and the root is on the hillside amongst other trees. So, I need a chain, tow line, cable or something that's around 100 ft. I can get a 5/16" chain that's 92 ft long. Will reach and says it's got 1200 lb capacity (FWIW).My question is how much to tree weight? How do I estimate? If I do screw up and break the chain will it become a leathal projectile? Any other suggestions on what to use instead of a chain?Thanks,Bob A.



Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Pulling down trees

View my Photos
Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2000-06-08          17041


Bob, the short answer is that a chain will NEVER 'fly' if it breaks....you however, may be a little unstable after it lets go, depending on how much pull you are applying, and how much 'stick'um' it is trying to give back..... Without making it complicated, I would not try it, that tree propably weighs many tons, never mind the 'rolling resistance' of the stump, etc. Best of luck. ....


Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Pulling down trees

View my Photos
dave piper
Join Date:
Posts: 1
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2000-06-08          17044


Bob. If you can tell us what kind of a tree, it's length and diameter I would bet we can come up with an approximate weight. Also, are you sure that chain is only rated for 1200#. Sounds low for 5/16". Dave. ....


Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Pulling down trees

View my Photos
David Paul
Join Date:
Posts: 1
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2000-06-08          17045


You don't say what size tree or what size tractor you are planning to use, but from the sounds of it this has all the makings for "An America's Funniest Home Video" segment. 5/16" chain is a joke if you are trying to drag logs. The chain can and will snap back if it is under enough tension. (the stored energy in the chain has to go somewhere) In all likely hood if the tree is large and the tractor is small and the traction is good a broken chain or a tractor wheelie will be the result. Cut the tree up in small pieces and then drag out the small pieces. This will proably be much safer. ....


Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Pulling down trees

View my Photos
turfman
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 97 midwest
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2000-06-08          17050


I know for a fact that broken chains snap back. I would post the picture of a guy my friend worked on in Indianapolis with his head caved in and the mind of the stump he was trying to pull. This guy never even had the chance to turn his head a little. The dent left in the side of his head in the picture I saw was enough for me to always wear a helmet when pulling anything with a chain. I have had chains break, they fly. The same with cable. David is right, it's physics at work. my two cents ....


Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Pulling down trees

View my Photos
Eric Edwards
Join Date:
Posts: 1
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2000-06-08          17055


I don't see any harm in a little testing. I use 7/16" cable on a farmi winch and it will continuously pull 3.5 tons without fear of breaking. Even so, you can bet I'm not standing in direct line of fire and I always wear my helmet and faceshield. Anyways, If you have chain, try it. Go slow with plenty of rpms and maybe have someone watching the tree while you concentrate on driving. If you are concerned with the chain snapping, temporarily C-clamp a half sheet of 3/4" plywood to your ROPS to protect you. You will lose visibility and will need a friend for feedback but you will be safe. In low gear tipping etc shouldn't happen so fast that you can't react. Don't try this without a ROPS in place and make a straight away haul. Also if branches are stuck in the ground mud etc you will probably have to do some limbing before you're successful. If the tree is 20" in diam with a full crown you'll have to cut it up good and the butt ends are bound to get hung up. A skid made from a vwbug hood is an old remedy. My 2 1/2 cents ....


Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Pulling down trees

View my Photos
TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2000-06-09          17061


If it's a sizable tree and already down, I guess leaving it where it is isn't an option. Transporting it off the property as a log would be a big deal. Burning it as a log also would be a big deal.

If the tree is of any size, I'd buzz it up into small sections with a chain saw. It's easier and safer that way. A chain saw probably is going to be needed anyway to limb it, because it won't skid well or safely with limbs on it. Unless the idea is to move a log intact from one place on the property to another, it probably is going to end up buzzed anyway. It's better to buzz it in place even if the idea is to use for firewood. A skidded log is full of dirt and is real hard on chain saws. People around here sometimes scrub skidded logs.

Maybe the tree being in a stream is the problem both for leaving it there and for buzzing it in place. Even so, it might be easier to move the log enough to work on it rather than skid it any distance. Keep in mind that a log of any size probably weighs more than the tractor. If the log is on a slope, the tractor goes where the log goes, or it goes where the tractor is. Either possibility isn't real desirable.

For skidding logs, a choker and something to keep the butt end from digging in are good things to have.
The chain used for towing things with tractors often is transport chain (grade 70 or higher). It's a lot stronger than hardware store chain.

....


Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Pulling down trees

View my Photos
Bob A.
Join Date:
Posts: 1
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2000-06-09          17064


Thanks for the advice everyone.

The tree is an oak (white oak I believe). It's not gigantic but large. I can cut the trunk at mid section with a 16" chain saw. I'd estimate it's about 40 ft long from root to tip. I have every intention of cutting it up before moving. My question is more along the lines of how do I estimate weight to determine the size of the cuts and if there's any rules of thumb, etc, that more experienced people use. My tractor is a Kubota L3010 rated at 32 hp. I also have a loader and blasted the tires which might help offset flipping if it gets away from me.

Thanks again for all the advice. It really helps.

Bob A. ....


Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Pulling down trees

View my Photos
dave piper
Join Date:
Posts: 1
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2000-06-09          17067


Bob. Air-dried white oak weighs 48# per cubic foot. If my math is correct, and I suspect it is not, that tree should weigh around 4300# but I wlll let you do your own math. One other point. Grade 7 5/16" chain has a breaking point of close to 5000# so I would suggest you buy this as you will break the hardware store variety. The number 7 or G7 will be stamped on the links. Good luck. Been there, done that. Dave ....


Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Pulling down trees

View my Photos
Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2000-06-09          17071


I would VERY MUCH like to see the pictures...... As a Licensed Professional Engineer I know just a little about physics, 'flying' chain would require two things to happen first, one that the chain had stretched prior breaking, second, and MOST imortantly, that it had elastic properties, enabling it to recoil when released by breaking. Since a cable stretches proportionately along its ENTIRE loaded length (which is many CONTINOUS pieces of steel) it recoils the same way, along its whole length. Chain cannot act this way, if anyone has ever stretched a low quality chain they will know that when the load is removed it does NOT return to it's ORIGINAL shape, or even close to it. Further, the fact that each link is a seperate piece reduces this tendancy even further by allowing each individual piece to 'relax' once the energy (pull) is reduced or eliminated. In fact, if you use a section of chain at the end of a steel cable you can almost entirely stop the ability of the cable to 'fly' if it snaps since the chain absorbs the energy first. Buy a hunk of 'cheap' chain & try it some time, I'll gladly stand next to it.......... ....


Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Pulling down trees

View my Photos
dave piper
Join Date:
Posts: 1
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2000-06-09          17073


Murf. I agree with you. I broke quite a few chains before I learned about the different grades and none did anything other than falling on the ground. Turfman's post was a little unclear but I suspect that the accident that happened to his friend was caused by energy being "stored" in the roots of the stump he was pulling. My 2cts. Dave. ....


Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Pulling down trees

View my Photos
diggerdarol
Join Date:
Posts: 1
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2000-06-11          17116


My turn now. Been there done that. I had two 100'(or so)hemlocks come down in a wind storm here in Wa. They were (parts still are) laying accross a hill side. Trunk diameter at the bottom about 26-30". I broke out the chain saws (20" bar is my "big one"), limbed them and I used my 6000# class mini excavator and a cat choker from Bailey's (http://www.arborists.com/BAILEYS/baileys.htm)with extra cable to drag (or carry)out lengths to where I'd cut them into rounds for firewood. I wouldn't have used my wheel tractor on that ground however. Be sure to stay uphill from the limbed logs and rounds. When they get going there's no stopping them. ....


Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Pulling down trees

View my Photos
TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2000-06-12          17120


There have been several real good threads here and tractorbynet about tractor logging safety. At best, it's just not very safe. Reading the archives might be good.

Staying uphill is a good idea, but it's not fool proof. I recall Stumper (whose posts I haven't seen lately) commenting about seeing a log traveling downhill at considerable speed, and towing a skidder behind it. True, 'once they get going, there's no stopping them.' A log skidder is a big machine.
....


Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Pulling down trees

View my Photos
lsheaffer
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 1082 Northern Illinois
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2000-06-12          17122


We wish you folks that have explained all the theory behind why a chain won't fly, will explain it to the chain that went through my tractor cab rear window. Your theories may be fine, but one instance of a flying chain sort of disapproves them, ....


Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Pulling down trees

View my Photos
Ken
Join Date:
Posts: 1
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2000-06-12          17124


Worked in a steel mill 35 years and have witnessed many cable and chain breaks.With an overhead crane lifting with a chain on the main hoist hook---if the chain slipped off the lift or the chain broke the end went through the cab of the crane.Also with a cable on the end of the chain it was even more dangerous.(Millwright 35 years) Ken
....


Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Pulling down trees

View my Photos
Bob A.
Join Date:
Posts: 1
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2000-06-12          17132


I removed the tree this weekend with a 5/16 chain. Obviously no problems since I'm here to type this :) I cut the tree canopy and pulled it out of the stream bed in one piece. It got hung once and the tractor tires just started digging in. I back up a little and (gently) moved forward again and it came right out. Now, the trunk and root ball was still lying on the slope (amongst other trees). I cut it into 2 pieces and left the root (a 16" chainsaw went right through so it's not THAT big a tree). The first piece got hung up on some trees. I was a good 75-80 ft away and couldn't really see too well. It stays. I also left the 2nd piece closest to the root. Here's were it get a little interesting. I thought it was lying safely on the ground. It wasn't. Apparently I didn't cut all the way through and it was holding on by a fiber or two. About 1/2 hour later I heard a loud snap and it came a-crashing. I was no where near it and no one else so no harm done. Since it came half way down the slope I just wrapped the chain around it and pulled it out. But, it goes to show how unpredictable and dangerous these endeavors can be. ....


Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Pulling down trees

View my Photos
Kim Hartshorn
Join Date:
Posts: 1
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2000-06-12          17135


I have been pulling quite a bit of logs with my tractor. You do have to be careful but I have been quite surprised at what it can do. A chain will fly when broken if...it is fastened to something elastic or with it's own momentum.
For instance if it is attached to a winch and it snaps the winch suddenly goes to no load on a maximum pull and propels the chain. If it is connected to the bumper hitch of a car and the car is moving forward...jerking it will also propel the chain. The key is acceleration. if there is no acceleration the chain will not propel. So keep the pulls slow and steady. But also be aware that there may be an elastic momentum somewhere in the line of pull. It is a good idea to put something with some weight on top of a chain that you are pulling to lessen the danger of it flying when broken. One thing I have not done but have thought about doing is threading the first ten feet of a pulling chain through a length of pvc pipe.

One other method of pulling something heavy and worrisome...or sometimes to break something out is to use the bucket roll on your loader. If you have chain grabs on your loader you can chain the tractor to tree and inch the drag using the roll on your bucket....roll back...rehook chain...roll back...rehook chain...roll back...rehook chain. It can be slow but can be done off the tractor in relative safety.

Good Luck Play Safe

Kim Hartshorn ....


Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Pulling down trees

View my Photos
Richard Harburn
Join Date:
Posts: 1
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2000-06-12          17142


Just a quick thought from someone who has done tree work as a profession - topping, take downs, power line clearing, clear cutting, etc. Trees, in general, are fairly predictable but always unforgiving. Much of the time, you are working by intuition and previous experience and you can never see inside a piece of wood. If a person is working by guesswork or long range advice from people who may or may not be professionals there can very well be a disappointing end to a seemingly simple project. I'm not throwing off on anyone - just ask a tree man, logger or other professional in a related field and they will tell you that there is always an element of danger and the unknown that can come to you fast and at the most unexpected moments. You may get a lifetime of mistakes or only one. When in doubt, it is sometimes best to round up a professional - even if you are going to do the work yourself and only pay for the advice. Work safe - wear your saw chaps (I've seen them save a life), eye protection, etc. Good luck in the woods. ....


Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Pulling down trees

View my Photos
Tim Barricklow
Join Date:
Posts: 1
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2000-06-15          17205


The chain discussion is very good. I am a physics teacher as well as someone that has used chains in many arenas. True, chains typically do not store enough energy from stretching to "fly in the air". If the chain is the only variable than pull away. This is not the case. As stated, acceleration is one consideration. The chain can also come unhooked and unwrap in a circular motion causing it to "fly" if still connected to the puller (ie pulling a rope or hose around a corner). All of these discussions also assume the pull force to be constant when the break occurs. Most instance of pulling stubborn objects involve rocking the eqpt to get more momentum. This causes the chain to undulate vertically as well as being pulled lingitudinally. As for exceptions, I am aware of one fellow locally (IN) that was in a blazer 4x4 driving trying to pull out another truck that never knew what hit him when the chain flew, hopped, accelerated, propelled, contracted, or whatver else you want to call it, through his back window and thumped his gourd. He is dead now. Never say never...and when you do...look out. ....


Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Pulling down trees

View my Photos
Bob A.
Join Date:
Posts: 1
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2000-06-15          17211


I guess the message from all this is if you're hung up when pulling with a chain DO NOT back-up and accelerate! If the object still doesn't move and the chain holds and you're lucky, you'll just loose traction. If you're unlucky the tractor could flip. If the chain breaks while you accelerate the tractor momentum or, if the object breaks away or apart, the stored energy in the object could cause the chain to fly. So take it slow when pulling with chains. ....


Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Pulling down trees

View my Photos
Darren
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 0 Tucker Co, WV
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2000-06-15          17229


A way of adding an extra margin of safety is to throw a tarp or blanket over the line or chain. If you do get a break the tarp or blanket will help restrain the the whip. ....


Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


   Go Top


Share This







Member Login