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Terry Weivoda
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2001-02-28          24829


On Tuesday I called a JD dealer (not the one I normally deal with.He was out of town). I asked if they could order me the three point hitch telescoping draft links for my 4600. He told me that there were no codes yet to order but that he was scheduled to talk with his "territory rep" later that day and that I should call him back which I did. I was told that the information from his rep was that the telescoping draft links would not be available until next year. I advised him that the parts numbers have been listed on this discussion board and that they were supposed to be available this month. I did not have access to the part numbers at the time. This morning I called and gave him the numbers. He called me later apologizing and said he could have the telescoping links next week for $200. While he didn't come out and say that the "territory rep" was an idiot I gathered that was his impression from his tone on the phone. What is going on at John Deere? Deere used to hire employees that had a farm background or some other experience with the equipment. Now it seems as though they only want these characters with degrees in education but who probably have never operated a tractor. Praise be to the Webmaster for putting this board together. There is more useful information on this board than you can get from Deere and/or many of its dealers. Thankfully, the dealer I do most of my business with stays on top of the issues. However, he had not heard of the telescoping links availability until I saw it posted here and told him about it.



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Halsey Green
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2001-03-01          24866


Terry, I don't want to offend you, but do know why there are so many people with education degrees out there doing everything but teaching? In most places, teaching doesn't pay as well as manufacturer's reps, and I don't know if you have been in the classroom lately, but teachers don't get much respect, especially in high schools. I'm not a teacher but do work for a school system, can't recurit teachers at $30,000 a year, losing the teachers we have because the students are threating them or they are out of control. But you are right about manufacturer's reps - good many don't know the product. ....


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Mike S.
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2001-03-01          24895


Terry--I am also a teacher and can very much relate to what Halsey stated even though my own teaching situation in a rural Kansas community is pretty good, even after 31 years. But in addition, IMHO, there is a trend in the American workforce in which quality and motivation may be different now when compared with even a dozen years ago. I asked my JD dealer for permission to speak to the JD rep and was told that it was simply NOT permitted, which is a shame since I had a real load that I wanted to dump on him just to get his official JD reaction. I even went to the Western Farm Show in Kansas City last weekend looking for a high JD muckitymuck only to find out that the major tractor manufacturers have abandoned these large farm shows in lieu of area dealers bringing in their sales items. I was lucky enough to visit with Mr. Herd about the famous Herd seeder/fertilizer spreader, but I would have paid good money just to bend the ear of a JD executive. An attempted correspondance with the person in charge of the Compact Diesel Tractors only yielded a call from the Jd communication center from a nice lady that didn't have a clue about the issues that I had "politely" raised about JD engineering and quality control. ....


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Terry Weivoda
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2001-03-02          24903


Mike, I think my previous post may have been misleading with the reference to "degrees in education". I was not in any way taking shots at teachers. My point was that the field rep,or territory rep, or whatever they call them today, probably has a masters degree in business administration and may well have other degrees as well. But he doesn't have a clue as to what a three point hitch on a tractor looks like. When he was asked by the dealer about telescoping draft links he probably looked at his notebook computer, couldn't find a section that covered a three point hitch, and concluded that they are not available. Again, no true understanding of tractor operation but applied for a position with Deere and because of his credentials, not whether he knows anything about the product that he will responsible for, he is offered a good job. My post was not intended to be critical of education. But I believe that John Deere, and all businesses for that matter, need to have a blend of practical experience with the formal education. It is not unreasonable for customers to have someone beyond the dealer level to answer questions and resolve problems. But when the customer knows more than person we are turning to for the answers it is a problem. I have often thought how well Deere, NewHolland, Kubota, or Cub Cadet could be served if one of the members of this discussion board had real input to company/production decisions. I am talking about those of us who live for evenings and weekends/vacations to use our compact tractors. This is the person that should be employed to work with the dealers and the customers. Someone that has a true love for the product not someone who took a job with Deere because they couldn't get a job with Microsoft. ....


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Ted Kennedy
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2001-03-02          24920


Hi Terry, when I'm not working at my career in aerospace manufacturing engineering, or the hobby woodshop, I'm at my part-time business designing landscapes. I'm a guy who loves tractors and what they can do, and I also have some insight into the problem you describe. I had prepared a long winded comment involving "Workforce 2000", a study made for American industry to project what the American worker would be like in the year 2000, but I decided to spare everyone and canned it. The study essentially tells the U.S. industry to offload its products to a foreign manufacturer because the American workforce couldn't, wouldn't, cut it by 2000. This study has had such far reaching impact that virtually every U.S. mfgr. today shuns the American workforce, for lots of reasons too numerous to go into here. Deere is not an exception, nor is it an exception in the way it trains its people. American industry, on the whole, wants to hire as a minimum, only college grads for their salary positions, and is hard pressed to find mechanically knowledgeable and experienced people for technical work. Once most manufacturers do find who they think is best, they do little or nothing to train them in the skills required for their jobs (sending them back to college doesn't count because they never learned the ropes there in the first place). It really isn't the workers fault that they lack the skills to do their job. Experience, taking years to get, is then lost in the mad shuffle to "out" the older worker who has earned too many benefits, too many vacation days, and all too often, knows too much about how the game is played. And yes, this all applies to tractors too. Lighten up on Deere, they are great people and still make, and have made for them, great products. You should, I think, take your observations and experiences to the top. Using the same technology that brought you to this forum, the internet, you as a consumer could rightly give the CEO and COO of any corporation some insight into what is killing their business. They need to hear what you have to say if they are to ever reverse the trend. It only takes a minute or two, and I think you'll be surprised at the reply you'll receive. Best of luck. ....


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turfman
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2001-03-02          24921


The most dangerous man is America today is a 25 yr old with a briefcase!!!! ....


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kay
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2001-03-02          24926


Me also thinks there is another dangerous man: he who has the money to buy these tractors with no more experience than is suggested the engineers should possess. Then he whimper's about someone else's lack of knowledge or experience. The engineer should have known I would not like this! Seems this is a two-edge sword. Not much can be gained by blaming the other, but much can be gained by discussing and trying to solve the problems we all can have - brakes on the wrong side, foggy dash's, wrong axles, etc. etc. ad infinitum. If we were super smart, we wouldn't buy anything that didn't fit our needs perfectly. Too soon, too late we find out we were not super smart, and put our trust in the hands of the sellers to do everything for us. We are so spoiled. We want to blame someone if we are the least bit uncomfortable with our lives and our toys. Sorry for spouting too long here. I'll try my best to get calm. ....


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Ted Kennedy
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2001-03-02          24930


Turfman, amen. Kay, you are absolutely right. These are matters that should be discussed, and they are, here on this board. Now, all of those folks who have built such a powerful argument for better quality control and engineering have to take the next step. They need to make the CEO's, and COO's, and even the Chairmen of the Boards, aware that there is something wrong. No senior executive is going to ignore you, especially when together your combined voice is so strong. ....


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Mike S.
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2001-03-02          24942


Terry--I never felt that you were taking shots at teachers in your comments, and in fact, agree with your comments. In addition, the type of tractor dealer may also make a difference in their knowledge of upgrades, changes and other tractor issues. For example, a tractor dealer that sells everything from a JD push mower to the largest tractor in the 9000 line probably is less likely to be aware of extendable draft links for the 4xxx series than a dealer that sells only tractors smaller than the 5xxx series and specializes in compact tractors only. I have had three dealers tell me that often users of these tractor forums were ahead of them about some tractor issues. It depends upon the dealer--how many times did we see mentioned that the HD4xxx tractor owner's dealer was completely unaware of the turn scuffing, even a year after the issue came up, yet my dealer had already ordered me a new front end when I noticed on this forum that one was available. This makes me wonder if some of the area JD reps are more attuned toward the larger rolling stock where there is a lot more money for JD than the compacts. ....


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Terry Weivoda
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2001-03-02          24943


It appears that I may have irritated Kay and Ted with my criticism of Deere's dealer rep who had no clue as to the availability of the telescoping draft links for the three point hitch. Sorry, but I think I am right on this one. Kay is concerned that I purchased a tractor with no knowledge of the product. Nothing could be further from the truth. I owned 5 JD compact utility tractors prior to my 4600. I know this product. I was extremely critical of JD on the turf scuffing issue when my 4300 ripped huge chunks of turf while turning. Again, at first, JD reps didn't seem to know much about this problem. My dealer's rep new almost nothing about the problem up until the new design axle when into production. I agree with Ted's suggestion that we should take our complaints above the dealers and their area reps rather than just talk about on this board. I will do that. But this message board serves a useful purpose in allowing compact tractor advocates to disucss their experiences, good or bad. Where JD has responded appropriately to customer issues I have been complimentary. I praised JD for the new axle replacement on my 4600. I thought it took too long but stated on this board that JD did it right with the new axle. It is my long standing experience with JD compacts that allows me to be critical. I've been on the NewHolland Boomer tractors and I like them. I don't think it is "whining" when I ask for some information on parts/whole goods availability on my $24,000 tractor. It would one thing for the rep to miss the availability date by a week or maybe a month but this guy said it would not available until 2001. Maybe some members of this message board accept that as a routine way of doing business. I don't. I plan on keeping up my criticism of Deere when they fail to repond to the needs of the customer. ....


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Mike S.
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2001-03-02          24944


Kay--I apologize IF I misunderstood your statements in which I felt that you were, in a large part, blaming us owners for bad engineering and bad quality control of tractors over which we had no control or blaming us for complaining when our tractors had poor quality control and/or engineering. It was not my fault that the PTO on my tractor locked up at 8 hours and needed replaced, nor was it my fault that the hydro transmission started failing at 50 hours (which could have been fatal if it had slipped while carrying a half ton in the loader down my pond berm), nor was it my fault that one of the brakes was tightened too tight at the factory causing the tractor to stall out, or that metallic contamination was present in the transmission fluid, or that the dash fogged up or that the front end tore the grass out of the ground even though JD advertised this tractor as a quality mowing machine with a tight turning radius or a list of minor quality control issues. JD authorized my quality dealer to take care of all of these issues and set the tractor right and that is finally history. With what I have been through with this tractor, I have a right to complain. When purchasing an item, there are certain expectations that it will perform as advertised and in a dependable manner. The end user cannot be held accountable for purchasing a product that is flawed due to poor quality control. IF, ahead of time, the person purchases a tractor knowing that the brakes are on the wrong side, for example, and complains about that, then yes, they should have known better and the manufacturer is not a fault. ....


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Mike S.
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2001-03-02          24946


Ted--in theory you are correct--CEOs should be made aware of major problems, but I wonder if they REALLY care. When my 4400 started having problems, I became dissatisfied and tried emailing the person in charge of the compact tractors in Augusta and could not reach him via email. Only by demanding his name and address from the public relations person that contacted me from JD's communication center, was I able to send him a formal polite letter of complaint. Frankly, I doubt if he ever saw it even though I did receive another call from JD's communication center from a nice lady that didn't ahve a single clue about the issues that I was attempting to address with the CEO. Therefore, this attempt ended in utter failure--the JD CEO just didn't care enough to dictate a letter to his secretary as a response to me--not even a form letter addressed "to whom it may concern." I have attempted to visit with the JD area rep, but found that mere mortals are not permitted to visit with these reps. I even went to the Western Farm Show in Kansas City last weekend in hope of running into a JD executive only to find out that there were none there. As a result of frustrations some time ago, I even tried communicating with JD stockholders in a Yahoo JD stockholders forum. I am appreciative that JD was quick to authorize repairs and a bunch of upgrades and set my tractor right (finally after 18 months), but find it frustrating that as an end user, I cannot communicate my concerns directly to JD. Yet, in all honesty, it appears that JD must be listening to somebody, because they have made some excellent improvements available in the 4xxx tractors such as armor for the rear flasher lights, armor for the FELs, extendable lower draft links, much better shifting linkage for the axle range shifter, better shifting linkage for engaging 4WD and a better loader lock mechanism. Therefore, I wonder whom they are listening to??? ....


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JeffM
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2001-03-03          24956


Mike S., You mentioned a few items I was not aware of. Armor for rear flashers? FEL armor? (I assume for the hydraulic hoses) The shift linkage improvements? Could you please elaborate on these? I don't remember seeing them covered on this board before, but I may have missed them. My 4400 is March,2000 production so I'd be interested in improvements since then that could be upgraded. Thanks. ....


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Mike S.
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2001-03-03          24964


JeffM--I am not certain as to what all the FEL armor accessory package contains, but it probably has protection for the hoses, cylinders and possibly the hood. The armor for the flashers is just a 7 or 8 gauge steel frame that goes around the outside edge of the flashers to prevent them from being broken off, but does not go in front or behind the flasher lenses. It would be easy to break off a flasher since it is outboard of the ROPS--I have broken several lenses by running into tree limbs while mowing, but the armor will not prevent that. Series II Boomer flashers are on a rubber pivot that allows them to just bounce out of the way when struck by a limb. The armor for the Deere flashers costs about $28 for both and appears to also fit series III Boomers too since their flashers are identical to those on 4200+ Deeres. The linkage improvements are warranty PIPs (not recalls) which your dealer can check on as well as order and install. These linkage upgrades may already be on your tractor since it was made in March, 2000. Just in case, the 4WD selector lever is longer, the FEL loader lock has three detent positions instead of a U-shaped loop, the axle range shifter linkage is totally replaced allowing much more positive shifting into the three axle ranges (awesome upgrade!!) AND the FEL's dual selector valve linkage was replaced--the new steel shifter was an anodized (gold) color instead of the original black. I suggest that you visit with your service manager to inquire about any PIP upgrades due your tractor--they can provide that information, but probably only if you ask. Because of info on the two tractor forums I was aware of one linkage PIP upgrade and requesed my dealer to handle it, so he went ahead and ordered all of the avialable PIP upgrades and installed them at the same time. By the way, how did you know the build date of your tractor???? ....


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Mike S.
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2001-03-03          24965


JeffM--OOPS--in my previous post, I should have been clearer on two of the linkage upgrades. Both the upgraded axle range shifter AND the FEL joystick were anodized gold in color instead of the original color. I looked at several newer 4400's today on a sales lot and their axle range shifters and FEL joysticks were black in color, so I am unsure if the color is significant in determining if the newest linkage is present. Can anyone give the code that is present in the JD tractor's serial number that indicats the year of manufacture? ....


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Ted Kennedy
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2001-03-04          25022


Well, what can I say. If MikeS did take a stab at it and got nowhere, then it may just be that Deere's time has come and gone. I do, however, think that the CEO was made aware of the issues and the fact that you got a call back shows that they are listening. Do they care, they'll sure care if corporate counsel tells him that you intend action and that your attorney is looking into class action comprised of other agrieved Deere owners. Corporate structure dictates that counsel must make senior counsel aware of the issue, and generally speaking, senior counsel has a weekly with both the CEO and COO. Chances are the boss did get the word and delgated back down the chain. And never did I think that Terry was wrong in being critical of the JD rep, nor did I mean to imply that Terry had no justification, just that it may not have been his fault that he wasn't trained. And for God's sake, I wasn't irritated even a little, honest. I don't come here to pass judgement on anyone, nor to anger them. I try to offer help based on personal experience. I offer one last thing that may help if you don't like the attorney's letter idea, and that is, Deere & Company's annual report has to be public record, almost every annual report includes the names, and sometimes, the corporate address of the chairman, etc. The annual report should be downloadable. I use annual reports as a source of names and info for my letter writing. If you can't get to the CEO, then I'd bet there is a VP of Quality Assurance, a VP of Small Tractor Manufacturing, A VP of Import/Export, a VP of Communications, a VP of Corporate Counsel, a VP of Public Relations (see my point? if the big cheese hides, then go after the little bosses), and you should be able to get to them. More often than not, future sales are lost because of service after the sale, eventually it will catch up with Deere. I hope I've helped. ....


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Marcus Jackson
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2001-03-18          25614


I work in sales at a local John Deere dealer and would like to add my 2 cents worth to many of the topics discussed above. When Terry mentioned the problem of the sales staff and or the jd rep. not being informed of updates to tractors, it is often caused by two main problems. The first being lack of communication from the manufacture to the dealer, to the sales staff, and second, the flip side, information overload. The lack of communication often stems from the dealership trying to route information to the correct person in the sales staff and often times critical info is skip. The second, which i think is the majority of the problems is information overload. To keep up with the changing times John Deere must continully up-date and revise its product line to stay up the competitive market place. John Deere is a world wide company and many dealers are small family operated businesses. When trying to funnel that much information into a one to two person sales staff there are bound to be things that get overlooked. To keep up to date i must be aware of everything from current financial incentives, to competitive information, to new product intros, to product updates, to price changes, to features and benefits of current products and still research and learn the needs of my customers. By no means am i complaining because i like my job very much and wouldn't be doing it if i didn't. By the same means your getting your information on the internet, John Deere is using that same technology to get info. to the dealers. John Deere has put in place an intranet that dealers can log on to called "Pathways" All dealers have access to it and i would suggest that you ask your sales rep. if he uses it. On "Pathways" he will find all the info about Extra Armour kits and any other new product improvements. One last thing i would like to mention is about changes that have been happening on the 4000 series tractors. Most of the changes have been rolling changes on the factory floor, and yes, John Deere is listening to customer complaints. In the few short years John Deere has been making that series there been over 200 improvements to it tractors. And last of all I am proud to sell a product from a company that has been around for over 150 years.
....


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