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WillieH
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2006-01-27          123646


Ok, I have seen the previous postings about welding AL with gas, and duly noted the expertise. The closest that I desire to have contact with gas is after eating a bowl of Hot chili !!! lol

Seriously though, I have been welding for some 30 years, but never AL...rather steel usually. Recently started with a TIG, but, it wasn't mine though I did get rather proficient with it, and had to leave it behind.

My question is this. I have a Lincln AC225 Box. I have been told, that I cannot weld AL with it, as it needs DC for the proper weld current. (I vaguely remember such info from my shop instructor some, ahem, 30 years ago)
Just reading an article in the "Miller Welding" Catalog about a unit called the "Econotig". This affords AC/DC TIG/Stick welding. In the text, it reads "AC output for AL welding and DC output for mild/stainless steel".

Hmmm, I want to weld AL, but now am somewhat befuddled. Anyone know if I can weld AL with my AC unit with AL stick, or must I reinvest in a different unit for ? $500.00 - $1500.00 or more?

Thanks for the input

- Willie H




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jdcman
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2006-01-28          123697


Willie,

To TIG AL you'll need a unit capable of AC with HF. The High Frequency is used to maintain the arc during the sinewave transitions from positive to negative. On the newer inverter machines having the HF on continues isn't necessary --- these machines use square waves with fast edges.

I always advise folks to buy bigger than they think they will need in terms of machine capability.

A good approximation is about an amp per one thousands of an inch in material thickness.

Also, in my opinion, one of the biggest advances in recent years has been the added feature allowing one to adjust the AC frequency of the main current waveform. This gives a real nice focused arc, which is very useful on thinner material. This feature is only available on inverter machines vs the older traditional transformer machines, which are typically fixed sine.


Although I've had several Miller machines, I really don't know anything about the econo Tig. But if you do buy a new machine I'd recommend sticking with a name brand. When it comes to the mid to large size machines from either Lincoln or Miller it's like a Chevy vs Ford deal. I've had both machines and have my preferences just like everybody else.

Also, I've never tried to arc AL, but I've heard that the process isn't really all that pleasant to work with.

TIG really is the way to go if you want to work with AL. Note, not all TIG machines come equiped with the AC and HF capability. DC is used for mild steels, SS, Cu, etc..

JD


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WillieH
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2006-01-28          123700


JD -
Thanks for the input, it's appreciated. I agree, I have used both Lincoln as well as Miller - they both have there good points as well as bad, and both work well.

I just decided that I have a lot of projects that require AL welding. I had heard that "NO, you can't weld AL with stick". Then I read you could. Then I was told that "you cannot weld AL with AC" (from a Merriam Graves shop). Then I read in the Miller catalog, that this "Econotig" allows for AC Welding with stick for AL. Just trying to make sense of it all, before I make an investment that I may (or may not) need.

Just for ha ha's, maybe I'll drive down to the local Home Depot and pick up some AL stick, and see what happens on some scrap...then I know first hand what I should do - or not. (!)

I have come to the conclusion, that the TIG is probably the way, with either the helium or argon masking, but we'll see.
One thing that I do know, is that the weld of AL is not as strong as the base material, due to temperatures before, during and after welding. Unlike steel, AL has a melting point of about 1200 degrees F, where steel is around 2700 degrees F.

I have done alot of plain steel, and as of late alot of stainless, so I suppose there is no time like the present to learn Aluminum, and it's traits.
Thanks again JD

- Willie H ....


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jdcman
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2006-01-28          123704


Willie,

Mind if I ask what it is that you’re trying to weld, i.e., material alloy, thickness, use, etc.?

I primarily weld 30 to 250 mil 6061 AL.

I have an older Lincoln 335 Square Wave and a Thermal Arc 300 GTSW. The Lincoln weighs 600 pounds and the TA 90. Both rated at 300 amps but the duty cycle of the Lincoln is over twice that of the TA. I must say though, that because of the frequency adjust feature on the TA it’s my first choice of the two machines of late.

In my younger days I could butt a couple of coke cans together and put a nice bead around them. Now days my eyes aren’t what they use to be and it has had a bad effect on my hand eye coordination. But the significances of this is that you require a machine with good low end current control to do this type of work. In my opinion, Lincoln is the machine to beat. The TA doesn’t come close on the bottom end and neither did any of the Millers I had. I’ve been told that the Miller Aerowave is one heck of a machine, , (for 10K it better be), with good control all the way down to one amp for micro work. But I’ve never used one.

You can see where this is going … your decision about machines will have a lot to do with the type of work that you have planned.

As you probably already know, there are also a bunch of accessories that one has to buy before you can start to use the welder for TIG work.

If you put up a wish list of what it is you want to do, I’ll try and make suggestions based on my experience if that would be helpful.

BTW, where did you get that info re the weld strength of AL? If you're comparing the AL to steel you're correct. But the fact is that you can TIG weld AL, (alloy dependent here), and stress relieve with no adverse effects just as you can with mild steel.

Hope this helps and I haven't added to the confusion.

JD
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hick11h1369
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2006-01-29          123735


Regarding aluminum, I have a degree in industial technology with a strong welding background, tig is the best way to weld aluminum, because aluminum is a very very pure metal that reacts very poorly with contaminants, you can mig weld aluminum with a simple millermatic 210 with an aluminum spool gun, I would however advise at preheating the metal with a torch to about 800 degrees. YOU CAN ALSO WELD ALUMINUM WITH A STICK WELDER provided that you can preheat the metal to about 800 degrees, BOTH NEED TO BE COOLED SLOWLY though. It does take a little more amount of skill to stick weld aluminum, but if you are steady, have an idea of how the metals physical characteristics in the molten form react, you could easily do it with stick. IMHO if you want a wire welder, go with miller, if you want a stick welder go with linkon. If you want a tig, go with either, Miller has done alot to bring its company into a very competing market by offering square wave, high freq starts and what not. I personally have a miller bobcat 225 plus that is a gas driven generator/welder, and I power my millermatic 210 with it as well. I also can air arc with 3/16 air arc rod. I am very happy with my choice of machine. When it comes to welding, your experience and machines both hold great credit to what you want to do with it. I can weld pop cans together but that doesnt have much use on the farm.
best regards, Patrick Webb
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WillieH
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2006-01-29          123743


JD,

My primary desire is to weld some 1/8" x 1.5" aluminum angle for framing. Certainly nothing outrageous, especially to start with. That is why, I figure if I could weld it with a stick (first) to get my feet wet, then I could always move up and find a TIG system at my leisure.

I really do not have any aspirations to go into any sort of business practice with it, merely my own edification of being able to do it, and the various projects that I have in mind.

As far as the info that I posted on the previous thread, I found that in the course of researching the topic prior to posting the question. It was actually a directly from Lincoln Electric, on their website, (click on the link below).

Again, any advice is certainly welcome. Thanks

Patrick,
Thanks for the info as well. I do appreciate it.

- Willie H ....


Link:   

Click Here


 

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jdcman
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2006-01-30          123756


Hey Willie,

Yeah I agree, it’s always wise to see if you can make the equipment at hand do the job. Sounds like Patrick will be a good source for your arc welding questions on aluminum.

I have a couple of tips, most likely stuff you’ve already run across:

1) Cleanliness is very important when it comes to welding Aluminum. Remember that aluminum oxide has a higher melting point than the base material. My basic process is to take a stainless steel brush to the pieces being welded and then wipe them down with acetone. I’ve heard of folks who are concerned re the possiblity of stainless contamination and prefer scotch pads. I haven’t had trouble with the stainless contamination, but have run into sever oxide problems, particularly trouble some on thinner material. Perhaps the Al stick electrodes will have a flux included that makes this a non-issue.

2) Try and identify the alloy that you’re working with. I had the experience of going to one of Boeing’s “country” stores and bought a bunch of unmarked material. Well unfortunately for me it wasn’t a “weldable” alloy … what a mess. It was truly a live and learn process.

After I responded to your prior message it got me to rethinking your statements re the dilution of the mechanical properties for the various alloys as a result of the welding process. And yes I agree, if you’re considering building structural “stuff”, with any significant loading, you need to pick alloys that can be heat treated and brought back as close as possible to the original strength specifications.

Good luck, have fun.

jdc
....


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hick11h1369
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2006-01-30          123769


Hello again, this is Patrick, I have to agree with the alluminum being as clean as possible. After reading more of the posts, and seeing a little more detail in what your working with, ie 6061 alluminum and the thickness that you are welding, ie. .125 or 1/8" I think that you will find it difficult to weld that with stick. I do have a strong welding background, it is what kept me fed before I got hired into fords, but I have done some welding of alluminum with stick, but it was always thicker material, most of my alluminum experience comes from either tigging the materail or wire welding it. Both of those processes are "cleaner" than stick welding it, but you are right, tig welding is sounding like the way to go, but the tig process is not the fastest. If you do wire weld it, I do suggest preheating it. But, with the thickness only being 1/8" I would suggest getting the thinnest wire, .30 or smaller. Your gas selection is correct, straight argon has worked for me well. Helium you do get a "hotter" weld because of the shielding gas but I do suggest as well to "practice on scrap" to see if it will give you what you want. Also, when you wire weld, you will have to use a "spray transfer" which means when you are looking at the wire going into the puddle, it will be a sharp point, like a center punch or a pencil. The comment above about getting a machine larger than what you think you need is so so so correct, and it applies to everything from tractors to hammers. Bigger all too often is alway better. Not always, but when it comes to tools, dont cut your self short by saving a few bucks. I guess what I mean is I have the Miller bobcat, it cost me 1500. I did get a hell of a deal on it, it only had 19 hrs on it when I got it, normally they are around 2500 new. I am looking to trade that one in or get a new one, basicly the big Miller 400 amp welder, because I do do alot of air arcing and the 225 bobcat, even though it is load tested to 300 amp just works too hard even with a 3/16 carbon rod. The same goes for the millermatic 210, this is a great little machine in the fact that you can buy the spool gun to do alluminum with it and have both guns hooked up and both gas bottles hooked up and the brain in the machine tells the right valve to open when ever you pic up a gun to use. It is an awsome "little machine" and for the spool gun and the machine, I paid only about 1800 for them both brand new, and if you choose this machine, check the prices on ebay before you buy because the welding shops will take advantage of peoples ignorance. The only down fall in this machine was my ignorance, I wanted a machine that would give me spray tranfer while using regular steel mig wire, it takes 27 volts to do this and this machine will only give me around 24. It was my fault, I did not research this enough before I bought. I knew what I wanted and assumed that all machines would give it to me since this one was rated at 210 amps. As far as weling around the farm and even the welding I do, this machine is a very good choice, it will give short circuit and globular transfer and very nice looking welds and is a great machine for its size. In closing, if you have alot of alluminum welding to do, you might want to invest that money for the right machine, if you have three phase elctric where you are at, you can get more machine for your buck since they sell fairly cheap, and of course, you will have a service to offer others and the machine could pay for itself, I know I needed these machines on my farm and they have paid for themselves several times over in work that I have done here and for others. Best of luck,
Patrick Webb ....


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WillieH
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2006-01-30          123779


Patrick,
Without question, the concept of overkill rather than underkill applies in my book as well. I would much rather have a machine/tool built for haevier duty than I plan to expose it too, rather than have it break, burn up or worse yet injure someone because it was too light of duty for the task at hand.

My real concern was, why reinvent the wheel and have redundant pieces of equipment kicking around the shop, if I did not need too. Not only from a space standpoint, however cost as well.

Like I pointed out earlier, this is not a business venture that I am embarking on, rather a curiousity/fart around satisfier with some hobby projects that have been eating at me to get done. I guess I will keep an eye out for something used that is still decent (maybe at auction) in the line of a TIG, as opposed to dishing out big bucks for something that will probably see more darkness than light, however your points of doing jobs for people are very well taken.

I'll figure something out...in the meantime, I'll keep looking. Once I do come up with something, I'll be sure to repost.
Thanks again guys for all the input...

-Willie H ....


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WillieH
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2006-01-30          123837


Patrick -

With all this info floating around, I almost forgot the stem question...given two plain jane pieces of AL, can I use an AC welder to weld the two together or MUST it be DC?

This seems to be a stumbling block in my mind, as I have heard conflicting stories. (Just in general, forget MIG,TIG,ARC, for a moment)

Then under the pretense that I can weld AL with AC, is it the gas "masking" that enables a proper contaminant free fusion? And thus, would not be acquirable
with a plain stick weld, right?

Maybe once I get beyond this hurdle, EVERYTHING will be as clear as ... and I can make a decision

Thanks for your patience-

-Willie H ....


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jdcman
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2006-01-31          123881


Hey Willie,

Just saw your question to Patrick re your AC welder and AL.

Not ever having used the process myself I decided to crack open an old text book that was published by Lincoln Electric some years ago. I’m positive this same info is available on their website.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but based on your comments about ignoring certain processes and then including Arc, I’m not sure that you recognize that stick welding which I assume is what your AC buzz box does and the term Arc are synonymous.

At any rate chapter 9 in this text addresses the shielded metal-arc process as used on AL. The recommended polarity is DCRP. Which when you consider the Oxide problem associated with AL this makes sense. This two page write up is interesting reading. But to sum it up they really don’t recommend it for ¼ inch or less material.

After re-reading your first post, I suspect that your confusion is based on the ad for the Miller Econ Tig. Mind you I haven’t read the ad, but again I’m suspecting that when they are talking about welding AL they are referring to the TIG AC capability of the box.

Btw, keep in mind that this text I'm referencing is at least 30 some years old, there maybe some other electrodes that may make the process much more "do-able". Check out the Lincoln, Miller or Hobart sites for electrodes. If they have some that should be your first source for more info.

Hope this helps.
....


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WillieH
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2006-02-01          123884


jdcman -

Thanks for the tip. As I was reading the specs of the Miller EconoTig vs. the Lincoln 135 Tig, I came to the confusing confrontation of text. They will "weld TIG, stick, arc, and gouge".

I thought in the back of my mind, that stick and arc were one in the same, but with all the "knowledge" that I have recently read from the manufacturer's texts, my head was a spinnin'. The text that I have used, is, well, I am guessing now, but probably in the twenty five to thirty year old bracket as well.

I guess I will save my pennies for awhile yet and putts around with the stick, just for ha ha's, and my curiousity.
Who knows, it may just do what I need it to do - maybe not.
In any event, I think I am leaning, when the time is right, towards the Lincoln 135 TIG, as this unit allows as low as 5v/24amp output.

With my buzzbox, I can go only as low as 40 amp output, so ANYTHING lower would be greatly welcomed, and with the advent of much less heat, probably just what I am seeking. Again, after I save and count my pennies for awhile. They both come in around the $1500 mark.

I will stop by tomorrow (or now today) and see what is available for electrode - see what is new and exciting!

Thanks
- Willie H ....


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hick11h1369
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2006-02-01          123892


Hello again, sorry for the time lapse, been busy, but in regards to your question, jdcman answered it pretty accuratly. There are rods out there for AL as he has also told you to check with the dealers for whats new and exciting, but you did say it was just 1/8 inch that you are weldind. Again, I tend to shy away from stick welding AL as much as possible. They may make a rod for use with an AC buzz box. I know that they make E7018AC but never had the reason to research one for AL. The AC buzz boxes though do have a limited use though. I feel that the econo tig that you are looking at is your best choice, but you may find that for the money, getting a mig welder with a spoolgun might be a good choice too. Although the AL is thin, with practice you could "trigger" the spool gun to give a weld of strength with an industrial appearance in the shortest period of time. Unless your projects are something of art and the welds have to look appealing and blended because of the art, I believe that you will find the mig welder will be of better use to you. As you were saying before, 1500.00 is alot of money that is tied up in a machine that is used rarely, I have a tig and the spool gun, and I do alot of welding on the outside, and I have had them for 2yrs. I can say I have only used them both mabee a half a dozen times. If it werent for the steel welding that I do, I would have to say that the machines still have not paid for themselves but I have them to satisfy every customers needs if one should arrise.
Just some info regarding the terms you are comming across
SMAW- SHIELDED METAL ARC WELDING-COMMONLY KNOWN AS ARC WELDING
GMAW-GAS METAL ARC WELDING- COMMONLY KNOWN AS MIG WELDING
MIG- METAL INNERT GAS
TIG- TUNGSTEN INNERT GAS
When it comes to pollarity, it applies to SMAW and TIG welding. Basicly it is where the heat is applied, there is 21000 degrees in the arc welding process for steel anyways, the electrons travel from the neg side to the possitive side, when they are leaving, there is 7k degrees located at the point of exit, because they are going to the rod, they are slamming into each other creating the other 14k degrees. You will see terms like E7018EN, that means Electrode Negative, meaning the heat is in the steel. The contanminants that you were referring to in the AL comes from oxidation, meaning the molten AL came into contact with Oxygen before it solidified, that is why the gas is used in TIG and MIG. With electrodes for SMAW, the first two or three digits if it is a 5 digit number are the strenth of the weld for 1 sq in. The next digit is the possition it can me used in and the last digit is the coating on the rod, the coating is what creates a plume of gas to sheild the weld. E7018 or E11018, That is 70,000 lb tensil or 110,000 lb tensile, the 1 is all possition and then the coating. With alloy rods such as AL, SS, Cast Iron, each manufacturer has their own codes.
If you go with TIG, you will need a small piece of copper to melt your tungsten with to put a ball on the end of it. This is where you change the pollarity to the tungsten being Possitive, to take the heat and then melt to a ball about 1/16 to 3/32 of an in. then switch to EN for the welding. I could go on and on, but I think you have enough info to decide what you want to do. I hope I have not bored any of you. Just trying to be helpful.
best regards
Patrick Webb
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hick11h1369
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2006-02-01          123894


Sorry,
to answer your question, No, I do not believe that you will be able to weld 1/8 in AL with stick. Stick bites into the metal to much to be feasable for that thin of AL. TIG OR MIG IS YOUR BEST ALTERNATIVE. Sorry for the rambling.
best regards
Patrick Webb
ps, for tig it is AC for AL not EN ....


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WillieH
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2006-02-11          124370


Patrick, jdcman,
Just a quick update for you on my adventure of investigating a welder.
I cam across an ad for a used, not abused unit. The brand is an "Esab", apparently quite commercial from what I have found out. I have not been able to speak with the owner of said machine yet, however it was around $3700 when it was new...does stick, mig, tig and even dices tomatoes! It really is alot of machine. He is looking for best offer on it. Still out of my budget, but may still throw an offer his way.

The problem, is the operating specs. It apparently requires a 400v 3ph input. That in itself really does not bother me, other than what I have physically available, without having to have the power company drop another service line in, just for this baby. Nothing more than a step down transformer hookup with a 440vac 3ph input, though it would never be overwhelmed with the work I would give it.

Still more to come....(in time)

-Willie H ....


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hick11h1369
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2006-02-11          124376


Hello jdcman,
Esab is not a bad unit at all, however, like I mentioned before, you "CAN" pick up some great deals on welders that are 3 phase,(so called dime a dozen) for three phase machines. I am almost certain that this machine has the capabilities of doing everything that you would want it to do, the question is how much would it cost to have a converter installed??? Also, just a word of knowledge, just because a machine is capable of mig, stick, tig, does it come with everything to do so. My miller bobcat 225 plus will support all three, but I needed a 2000.00 suitcase mig attatchment, and I would need the inverter for tig processes, that was another couple thousand. This ESAB may support the three processes, but does it come with the equiptment to do them.
I was just at the miller dealer last week, they have a nice, really really nice tig unit there for about 2 thousand, this machine was really awsome, it was dual voltage (Single phase) meaning 120 or 240V. Basicly for that price, it was turn key. I was truely impressed with it.
Just a little more info, for stick and tig, you will find alot of stick machines will support tig, they both use constant current, or CC as listed on the selection lever of machines, CV means constant voltage, and that is for the mig process.
Well, I wish you the best of luck in your search for the right machine for the job. I do look forward to seeing what you go with. I hope that which ever you choose, you will be happy with. Good luck. With the more info you have on machines and what you want to do with them, I am sure you will make the right choice.
Patrick Webb ....


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hick11h1369
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2006-02-11          124377


sorry, that last post was supposed to go out to Willie. My bad. ....


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jdcman
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2006-02-11          124378


Yeah Willie,

Esab is a reliable brand. I have a big Esab Plasma unit and it has preformed flawlessly and reliable since the day I bought it.

Here's something else to be aware of, (skip if redundant), many of these multipurpose machines are DC only. Make sure you check to see that it has both AC and DC capability.

You guys are right about three phase, the equipment choices/opportunities gets a whole lot bigger.

Sounds like you're having fun now!
....


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WillieH
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2006-03-02          125386


JDCman,Patrick -
Well, here is an update on my welder endeavors:

The ESAB that I was looking at, turns out lost its ability for DC output - so there goes that one - (too rich for my blood anyway).

Question, I found a Tig welder inverter system, with all the hardware, clamps, hoses, electrode holders, etc. at a reasonable budget cost.
What is the difference between an tig inverter system and a "regular" tig unit? Don't worry about boring me here, always hungry for info when I will be potentially laying out green on equipment.

- Willie H ....


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jdcman
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2006-03-02          125402


Willie,

The TIG / Arc Welder is basically what is referred to as a Constant Current power supply. The difference between the “inverter” machines and the traditional “transformer” machines is in the technique used to transform the energy from 220 volt inlet side, (wall connection), to the regulated constant current on the output side, (electrode).

These machines are nothing more than giant versions of the power supplies that are in most everyday electronic gizmos found around the house. Almost all modern day electronic equipment use “switching” power supplies vs the older analog supplies that use big bulky multi tap transformers and regulators.

Inverters welders are a fraction of the size of the older transformer types. Mid range inverter machines are typically more efficient than the older transformer based guys as well.

Both types of machines can be bought with lots of bells and whistles that make the job of TIG welding a little bit easier, i.e., pulse wave form shaping, AC waveform offset control, timers, gas and water control solenoids, ect..

But the most useful feature available only on the Inverter type of machine is the ability to control the AC frequency. This is a big feature for AC work, i.e., AL. Meaningless in DC mode. This feature provides a nice focused arc, hence giving the welder better control of the puddle when working with AL.

There are a couple of down sides to the new Inverters ---

1) Duty cycle tends to be less at the higher output ranges.

2) The guts of the Inverter is electronics. Big MOS Pwr Devices do the switching. So the verdic is still out as to how well they will last over time. There’s lots of Transformer based machines of 40 yr vintage still out there working everyday. I don’t know if the same will be said of these inverters 40 yrs from now.

As I said in a previous post, I have had several transformer based machines and about two yrs ago purchased an inverter because of it’s small size and portability. It's great machine and as of yet have no regrets.

Hope this helps.


....


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WillieH
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 543 New England
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2006-03-02          125409


jdcman,

Judging by your posts and info that I have gained, I think I am slowly migrating towards an inverter system. For the work that I will be doing with it, I would be able to get my feet wet (so to speak) and still not put ou BIG bucks for it. Then later on down the line, IF I should need something bigger, I can always seek a larger unit, but with the knowledge and experience of the little one.
Stay tuned!
Best
- Willie H ....


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bluefishbeagle
Join Date: May 2006
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2006-05-10          129177


Yes you can weld it with the AC machine. As previously stated thin metal would be very difficult. Preheat with a torch and cover while it cools. ....


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WillieH
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 543 New England
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2006-05-12          129272


Bluefishbeagle -
Thanks for the tip.

I have finally made a decision on what to do. I have ordered an inverter (tig) from a local shop. I got a chance to putz with one, and found that it would suit my needs quite nicely, at least for the short haul - perhaps indefinitely.

Now I just need not be so anxious for it to arrive. (dealer was out of stock of new units at the time, so I needed to order it). Then, I will get to play with it !!!!!
Thanks to all for input ~

Willie H ....


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